Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Thanks - glad you agree.

Nope, I have done fighting you. I am quite happy to discuss rational points with people but I am not interested in being drawn into " but it makes children cry" again - thank you all the same.

I wasn't trying to lure you in don't worry. I never said it made children cry, I said it was intimidating. It is.

Twisting another posters words to make your own seem more pertinent - a great MN gift.

KingCanute - I'm sure people who are visually impaired manage to communicate just fine. But that doesn't mean that faces are not important for the great majority of human interaction.

People who are deaf manage to function in society pretty darn well, but it doesn't mean if a minority group decided to wear earplugs that wouldn't cause any problems for other people wanting to talk to them.

Edam, my point is that we can - if we want to - if we care enough. Not that faces are not important - infact I think I acknowledged that faces were important to some of us in my previous post.

I appologise Nancy your words were "made children frightened" I can see a huge difference there, I am sure the difference between "cry" and "frightened" made a massive difference to the way others would percive my post.

By Nancy "Would you choose to wear something ugly? Something that was hot and uncomfortable? Something that made people stare at you? Made people abuse you? Made children frightened? Affected your vision and made the citizens of the country you had made your home uncomfortable?"

Ability to misrepresent words when context removed = losers last stand

Oh do fuck off - you're just cherry picking remarks made in response to direct questions.

As I have said from the begining I object to the veil because of everything it represents and because I find it hard to believe that many women choose it of their own free will.

Of course Nancy. And to support that objection you are using offensive remarks.

I'm flattered that you've read my posts over and over again and that you have chosen to cut and paste them (albeit selectively and out of context) But it's coming across as a wee bit stalkerish now - so i'd stop if I were you....

lol, nice try. Night nancy

Canute, well I did read it again for good measure and nope, sorry, can't see that it is any more ridiculous. Whichever way you want it to be taken, it still sounds daft.

'Re the barking idea that we can get to know/understand each other without facial/visual clues, I think you will find people who are visually impaired manage that on a day to day basis and are not considered "barking".'

It's a well known fact that life is often very difficult for people who have VI for precisely this reason.

I don't like the word 'veil 'either.Connotations of something alluring and floaty which is sure as hell aint. I'm going with 'mask'.

This story was in our local paper last week... so some men do cover

Seriously, I have lived where I do for the last 20 years and have seen a huge increase in wearing the full face veil since 9/11, so either we've had a massive influx of people from Saudi or else it's a political statement.

When DD was smaller it did make her cry when she saw women completely covered in black from head to toe with the tiniest slit for eyes. It has been embarrassing at times trying to calm down a hysterical child whilst the muslim lady has attempted to 'help' by coming closer and closer (and making her even more panicky)...

Whilst I believe in people's freedom to wear what they want (and this morning a burhka would come in very handy!), I do find it unnerving to talk to someone when I can't see their face. That's no doubt my problem, but I do find it a barrier to communication and that makes me uncomfortable.

Don't think being at best uncomfortable because you are unable to see someone's face is your problem, Fruitbeard. Humans need to see each others faces. As I've said, there are large parts of the brain devoted to decoding facial expressions. (We really need MB on this, yet another reason to regret her being hounded off the board by that bitch who attacked the widows.)

Maybe people in dictatorships like Saudi where women are forced to veil are desensitised to this. Or just used to not being able to tell whether a woman is smiling or scowling. But the UK is not Saudi, or Iran.

And it does make small children uncomfortable - they are made nervous by people they can't read, if they can't tell whether someone is angry or happy. Dislike other masked people, as well as women who wear extreme Muslim dress.

When ds was tiny, he freaked out at someone wearing a dressing up mask - not an animal one, can't remember what it was but he was VERY disturbed. That's not his fault, it's a natural reaction from a small child.

Oh, I think it might have been someone dressed up as a doctor, hence surgical mask. Also was very frightened of clowns.

Has anyone asked visually impaired people whether being unable to see peoples' faces is a problem or not, or are people defending masking just assuming it's fine?

Would be particularly interesting to see what people who were sighted but have developed a visual impairment severe enough to prevent them reading faces think.

Even if they do manage, that's no reason to doubt the very natural discomfort felt by sighted people.

People are, of course, entitled to wear a veil if they wish. But they shouldn't deny that it may affect others ability to relate to them or understand them, or pretend it is everyone else who is responsible, not them.

I think anyone who dresses out of the ordinary realises that people may react differently to them, but that's very different from being attacked or even criticised.

they won't get used to it Riven - the veiled women will just become even more isolated.

Riven, because it is all about seeing the face. it doesn't matter what colour their hair is, how may piercings, how many tats - you can see their face. If you can't see somebody's face you can't properly communicate with them, it's intimidating and, actually, rude and disrespectful.

If men were choosing to mask their faces in the same way, would you be defending their right to do so in the same way?

"blind people never have any trouble communicating and they cant see people's faces."

I don't think that can be true. Without contacts or glasses, I am legally blind and cannot make out anyone's features. I can't even understand the nuances of what my family are saying without seeing their expression.It is not like talking in the dark. You feel exposed because the person you are speaking to has the advantage and you don't.

It feels similar when you talk to a woman with a face veil. It puts up a barrier preventing full communication. It can't be compared to the head scarf.

No, Riven, I have never spoken to a veiled woman, for the reasons discussed by EvenBetaDad and KingCanute above. As interpreted by our culture/upbringing, they are might as well be wearing a big sign saying 'DO NOT TALK TO ME'.

I have of course spoken to many women in headscarves/'modest' clothing, in fact many of my former colleagues... Hmmm. Come to think of it, must be hard to get a job if you're veiled from head to toe? Has anyone met a veiled woman in a professional capacity?