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Irish Catholic abuse-

202 replies

tiredemma · 20/05/2009 22:09

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

Im surprised it hasnt been mentioned on here.

Very sad- Disgraceful

OP posts:
dittany · 22/05/2009 18:32

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BunnyLebowski · 22/05/2009 18:41

Mary Kenny, for example, is a twat.

TheMysticMasseuse · 22/05/2009 18:49

as a catholic who has recently refound some kind of faith, i find this almost soul destroyingly hard to even think about it.

as the priest in my church says- WE are the Church. so to accept and condone the institutionalized horror and abuse that went on in ireland for so many decades (and in so many other places) you have to admit some pretty unpalatable truths about yourself. it is almost impossible for the majority of catholics to reconcile their faith and their experience with this horror- and it makes many, many of us beyond angry that the hierarchy of the Church refuses to revolutionise its attitude to all sorts of things including the naming and shaming and punishing of abusers and torturers within its ranks.

i went to the premiere of the magdalene sisters at the LFF a few years back and am still haunted by the memory of one woman who stood up after the movie to show the scars on her arms from her time in the laundries.

glastocat · 22/05/2009 19:22

Mary Kenny has always been a fucking idiot though.

chipmonkey · 22/05/2009 22:21

My MIL looooves Mary effing Kenny! I can't stand the woman! That drivel about poor Bishop Casey being seduced by an evil temptress!

Funny how she's failed to mention how the poor innocent man managed to deny the existence of his son as if a child is just one of those expendable things you can kick to the kerb.

FairLadyRantALot · 22/05/2009 22:38

earlier on there was made a comment about nazi germany, and I bowed out at that time...but now in the context the discussion has gone I think t is indeed correct to liken the irish catholic church of that time and what they did in nazi germany.....and sorry protection and not procecution is not an oprion....but of course this is the case in ay abuse and certaily in institutionilised abuse...

Hasakane · 22/05/2009 22:55

Message withdrawn

chipmonkey · 22/05/2009 23:38

FairLady, on Irish TV right now, they are describing it as our holocause.

TheYearOfTheCat · 23/05/2009 00:51

Hasakane, I suspect that one of the reasons why so many priests were involved in sexual abuse was that many were already attracted to deviant behaviour, and because they were not expected to marry it was not questioned.

Having said that, I am not, for one minute, suggesting that this is the motivation of all priests to join the church.

TheYearOfTheCat · 23/05/2009 00:53

Were the terms of reference confined to the South of Ireland? I can see no comment in the Executive summary of any schools in Northern Ireland.

expatinscotland · 23/05/2009 00:59

I am outsider to this, not being Irish or having anyone Irish in my family.

What I have come to believe after much reading is that between British occupation and the Church most of the ordinary Irish folk seem to have been doubly screwed over.

My mother's mother was brought up in a French orphanage run by nuns and I can tell you she was well beaten within an inch of her life to the point where, although she married into a very loving Latino family who loved her as one of their own and she brought her children up Catholic, she didn't believe in God at all.

Thankfully, her husband was a gentle man who loved her past anything and would always believe and defer to her first.

He was born and brought up very poor, the child of Mexican immigrants to America, and had also suffered beatings at the hands of priests.

So it was not just an Irish thing, as evinced by the many American people admitting they were abused as well.

.

It just makes me all the more sad for the heritage of Ireland.

DH's nana was brought up in a children's home in Ireland. Brought up to be a slave to British landlord.

She took the first opportunity she had to get away, by marrying a poor Scottish fisherman who nevertheless had enough to keep her and what children they had fed and dry and warm. And so he loved her very dearly. He said he had heard her singing in a yard, pegging out the wash of her landlord's children whilst on holiday in Scotland.

And then when he saw 'her black hair at her frost white neck' he would know no other.

But she would never speak of Ireland, nor would she set foot there.

She lies buried at North Berwick next to her husband.

BunnyLebowski · 23/05/2009 05:49

Expat - that's an awful but very sweet story about your DH's nana

And you're right about the Church and the British occupation.....but that's a whole other thread!

nooka · 23/05/2009 06:06

My father's family is Catholic, and we have some monks in the family and as close family friends. I would very much hope that they would be as horrified as I am and also ashamed at both the abuse and the cover up by the church authorities. I went to a Catholic school and the two nuns there were as it happens caring and fair. They did have a lot of authority though, as the religious ethos did give additional moral authority, and it is very easy to see how that could become problematic. I do think that the church authorities are particularly culpable though, as these sort of events seem to be unfolding across the world, and the response is frankly terrible. I would not feel at all confident that abuse was not still happening, known about and still covered up, abet probably not on such a large scale (although one might wonder about Latin America, given the complete lack of compassion shown by the recent rape and abortion case). Surely the only way forward is some real openness and a commitment to change? Otherwise the Catholic church should no longer be allowed to be involved with the institutional care of children.

Lucia39 · 23/05/2009 10:45

expat has, effectively, hit the nail on the head. While the abuse in Ireland is making the news right now the whole RCC has been, and no doubt still is, riddled with corruption and abuse. These atrocities were not confined to the Irish branch of the RCC - although these things were allowed to continue because of the deference shown to the RCC by various Irish Governments.

I have no doubt that similar cases will now start to be revealed around the world.

Also agree with the point made about institutions per se and the abuse of power - Lord Acton was absolutely right on that one!

StewieGriffinsMom · 23/05/2009 12:38

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ronshar · 23/05/2009 14:31

Expat, it is good to see you. How are they babies? All good I hope.

It refreshes my soul to read of so many people who feel the same levels of disgust that I do.
Why can the church not see the damage it has and is doing to hundreds of thousands of families by continuing to deny and cover up what happened.
My mum is still trying to find out details of her childhood. Hidden by the nuns. One of her fellow inmates, has a report which was written by a nun which states that she was educationally sub normal. At 8 years of age. This lady went on to run her own independant business and is in no way 'sub normal'. It was another of the ways in which the nuns were able to justify incredibly cruel behaviour.

MsMaggieBeauregarde · 23/05/2009 15:07

Completely 2nd everything chip said.

I was reading about an 80 yr old man in an Irish paper yesterday, and the only happy memory he could remember from childhood was a stranger giving him a glass of milk. In his entire childhood.... I just can't read it.

Hasakane · 23/05/2009 16:10

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edam · 24/05/2009 12:04

It gets even worse - letter to The Guardian yesterday from a solicitor who represents victims of abuse pointed out the new Arcbish of Westminster, Nichols, 'fought legal claims by child abuse victims tooth and nail, delaying justice for many years'. And has refused to apologise.

Somewhere else, forget where, said the Vatican was still hiding the identity of those involved in abuse, allowing the perpetrators to go unpunished.

The church is clearly rotten to the very core, still defending evil-doers, and still promoting those who frustrate justice.

MistressSeuss · 24/05/2009 12:53

Watching BBC 1 "Big Questions" debate, and there was an English Catholic priest on who queried "child abuse" as "most were teenage boys" and continued to defend the church's position...oh thats alright then. Guess they were asking for it WTF

Has he no shame? He used the phrase "these are horrendous crimes, but..." at least twice. THERE IS NO BUT!!!

Very interesting guy on it (Colm Mc something, Irish novelist and victim of abuse) who had some very very good points.

Number 1 - that the Vatican could put in place child protection guidelines. Simples

dittany · 24/05/2009 14:20

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chipmonkey · 24/05/2009 21:24

MistressSeuss, was it Colm O'Gorman? If so, that guy has been instrumental in bringing a lot of these criminal priests to justice.

MistressSeuss · 24/05/2009 22:27

chipmonkey yes it was - he was very eloquent - the priest didn't stand a chance

Upwind · 26/05/2009 13:27

"I wonder if any stats exist as to how many priests and nuns were from such abused backgrounds themselves? Not that it excuses such behaviour at all, but I otherwise struggle to comprehend how so many clergy could be so rotten."

IME, those nuns and brothers who were uneducated and/or from poverty stricken backgrounds worked in kitchens etc. They did not have the opportunity to rise to positions of power within their congregation. However, some of the worst abusers featured in the report did seem to work in the kitchens, e.g. at Letterfrack, and perhaps vented their frustrations on the wretched children they did have power over.

At the other end of the spectrum, again IME, those nuns and brothers who rose within the ranks, also spent a large portion of their childhoods in extremely disciplined Catholic institutions - boarding schools. In that era, middle class children in Ireland were nearly always sent to these boarding schools, and it is probable that their experiences would now be seen as brutal. Though nothing like as horrific as those of the children in the industrial schools. This could go some way toward explaining (though not excusing) their dreadful response to the victims.

Upwind · 26/05/2009 14:09

This has left me choked up

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4