Irish Catholic abuse-

[tiredemma]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

Im surprised it hasnt been mentioned on here.

Very sad- Disgraceful

I'm from an Irish, catholic, working class family - I am now atheist, best move i ever made.

Some irish families, especially poorer ones, have this stupidly, weird fucked up style of worship where they'll give some pervert priest a piece of cake and a glass of whiskey while their own kids go hungry.

This case epitomises everything I despise about institutional religions - the abject humbling of law, government, society and the individual before the power of the Catholic Church.

The way its viperous tentacles reach into every little scrap of society, doing as it pleases in the name of its God and answerable to no-one. Whilst society is too scared of its grip over the gate of heaven to even squeak when sickening injustices are endemic.

That the Church allowed to go upunished, and even facilitated, torture, rape, assault and kidnap and so many other forms of humiliating and degrading treatment for so many years is beyond shocking. Any other institution which had allowed this level of abuse to happen over so many years would be closed down, forced to make reparations to the victims and every single person responsible, including those at the top, would be prosecuted and hopefully sent down for a long time.

Any other institution.

And that is exactly what should happen to the Catholic Church in Ireland. But obviously it won't.

Hey chipmonkey Im Irish too, of the "plastic paddy" variety ie Im am a duel Irish/British citizen. I'm related to half of Ireland or at least it seems it lol. Yep of course I know Irish people arnt generally cruel! But the catholic controlled institutions definitely were in my parents day (they are just into their 70's now.) As I said the control was so pervasive it took a long time to change. My cousins now in their teens and 20's are a world away from their parents or grandparents in their view of the church. Now doubt if I was sitting with them today they would be really angry and scathing about what the church presided over.
When my grandmother was dead my aunt moved back to Ireland with the family she had first raised in England. Most of my cousins are still there. I know my cousins would not be upset about the out of wedlock thing, thats my mothers baggage and I cannot cross her on this one. Although my mum never beat me her upbringing has left her being cold and controlling. I try not to blame her at least she did a better job than my grandmother did.
My cousins however would be really upset that this was kept from them and would be very upset that a sibling of theirs could be lost.
Sadly I cannot tell them about this while my mum is alive. I want to, I have asked my mum to let them know but she will not have it.

I went to convent-run primary and secondary schools in London in the 60s and nearly all the nuns were lovely. I can't in a million years imagine any of them being cruel to a child, although some were quite strict. With this experience, it's hard for me to take in some of the claims made in the reports from Ireland, for example really sadistic practices - I just can't imagine nuns behaving like this.

Utterly horrible, but do be fair - very few of the perpetrators are involved now,a nd not even that many of the coveruppers.

"The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, "no matter how long ago it happened".

So he's evidently not signing off on the idea that none of them shoudl face a court.

"Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church, it is a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again, but I hope they're never a matter of indifference," he said.

This seems sane too. I was myself beaten once or twice by a demented Irish nun, but those bad old days are for the most part long gone. And agree with Lucifera - cool name! - most of the nuns who taught me were gentle old darlings. It's not particularly sane to say that ALL organised religion is tainted. You might just as well say that ALL fathers are tainted by child abuse cases and coverups. Some people are just evil...

Luci, maybe the schools were better regulated, more secular than their counterparts in Ireland. The unaccountability and power the church had in Ireland was the catalyst for the abuse in Ireland IMO.
I went to Catholic run schools in the late 70's/80's it was disciplined I suppose but by then corporal punishment must have been abolished as I cant remember children being hit. There were no nuns or monks in my schools.
When I went to Catholic sixth form I saw my first nun and was pretty scared at the sight of her given my mothers accounts of how cruel they were. She was fine, but to this day nuns make me feel uncomfortable.

i don't know what to say to my dc anymore...they are old enough to listen to the news.....

Actually Abby, I do feel pretty comfortable saying that all organised religion is tainted (but particularly the Catholic Church).

It's completely irrelevant whether this was a tiny minority of priests and nuns who did this (which it wasn't), the church protected these people, let them do it and then covered up for them. Not just once, in one place. But for decades and decades, in institution after instition. They explicitly or implicity stopped anyone else, be it the law or the government, from doing anything about it. And called those who claimed these people to be liars, after condemning them to lifetimes of misery. THAT'S why I feel pretty comfortable saying that it's tainted.

The point about them not being prosecuted now is that the church is still protecting them. That makes the church itself an accessory to child abuse. Not just a few bad people in it.

i agree with you cestlavie.....i have to carry on with it though.

I agree with cestlavie, religion is the at the root of war and trouble IMO.

My great gran comes from a poor, Irish catholic family and she was lucky her family were not abusive but the stories about priests and nuns beating children for the slightest mistake like walking to quickly or slowly.

All the people ionvolved in comitting these horrific crimes, covering them up and just not telling police what was going on should be prosecuted and left to rot in jail.

See how far their precious religion gets them then because all the praying in the world won't help them now!

the entire catholic faith is about suffering and feeling wretched and guilty.

I went to a convent and had to go to confession every week. One week I genuinely could not think of anything I'd done wrong and so I went and told the priest that I'd been very good and not commited any sins. I, stupidly, thought he'd be rather pleased but oh no - I was a vain, ignorant child putting myself in the likeness of the lord!

From that point on I went into confession and lied my arse off.

AL - the difference is that the abuse - insufficent food, clothing, ritual beatings and humiliation - were part and parcel of the system. Its not that there were rogue abusers who did this. The church knew what the system was, hell they designed it, and everyone worked within those parameters.

Nancy - i remember going to confession when I was about ten and having no idea what to confess to. The priest weedled it out of me. Did you tell a lie? Did you steal? etc. There was no way he was prepared top believe I was innocent.

Very sadly it isn't just the Irish though is it, I remember a children's home in Leicestershire being investigated in the 80's, which had been abusing the children in it, there is that recent case on Jersey? Or where ever, can't remember sorry.

I'm a practicing catholic both my parents are Irish but I'm english, but they raised me to believe in God, but to think for myself where the church is concerned.

Agree though the catholic church has been self serving for years, but I've also known some very good compassionate, intelligent nuns and priests.

Annie - of course that's right. But the institution itself here is at fault not a few crooked priests. The report describes the abuse as both systemic and endemic.
The CB made a decision on how to run these homes. We can't just blame the managers of them.

I'm Irish, living in Ireland again after living in London for 13 years, and horrifying as this all is, it doesn't surprise me one bit. I have heard too many terrible stories about abuse, for a certain generation it was almost accepted, certainly people turned a blind eye. I have issues with the Catholic church about this, they are directly responsible for ruining many lives, and they should face the consequences here on earth. I'm confused about how the hell they feel they can weasel out of prosecution and call themselves religious, but I'm not surprised.

As for church and state being seperate in Ireland, that's not entirely correct. I read recently that to become a judge here you have to swear an oath to god. So, if you are an atheist, you have to lie, perjure yourself even. Its a bloody disgrace, and makes me ashamed to be Irish.

This is all very difficult for us as we hae a close relative who 'came alive' a couple of years ago when we all thought he was dead. The school (Artane) told my Grandmother he has died when he was 11.
The whole thing stinks, he should never have been put their (his father died when he was small, the state let my grandmother keep my Mum but took him).
The fall out has been huge, my mother can't cope with him being alive, we don't know what to make of it all and as for him, I dread to think what sort of life he has had.
He is single, we don't think he can read, not sure if he is working at the moment. However he seems quite happy when we met him.

I went to a convent school in London in the seventies, and the culture of cruelty was still there. They weren't allowed to beat you black and blue anymore of course, but they were instinctively cruel.

An example which stands out: our class was having a christmas party and we were told by our (lovely) form teacher that we were allowed to wear our own clothes. Unfortunately, she forgot to mention this to the headteacher, a vicious old nun. When we all came in that morning as it was raining, the nun screamed at every single child and refused to allow us to explain that the teacher had sanctioned this - although as an adult, confronted by a whole class of 9 year olds in their own clothes, it must have been obvious to her that we'd been given permission and her beef ought to be with hte form teacher who hadn't communicated with her, not with the children.

One child was so frightened that she needed to go to the loo. The nun stood in front of the door and refused to let her in. The weeping child begged to be allowed in or she would wet herself. The adult watched the child wet herself and then called her a dirty girl and told her to go to the downstairs loo to clean herself up.

It's not beating black and blue, but it was an instinctive cruelty which when I think about it now as an adult, is truly shocking. And it was 1976, in London. Nothing of the gentle old darling about Sister Martina, I assure you.

Please, everyone, stop and think for a minute what you are doing here. While presenting yourselves as nice caring idealistic people, in fact you are spreading hatred, prejudice etc.

Please, don't deny it , because why then , being a catholic myself and reading this , I feel like cowering in the corner, scared of your condemnation , thinking should never admit my religion now and my children must not advertise it.

Ok, i'm not paranoid, don't believe you would stone me as such but still so not nice to be thought as scum of the earth and it's apparent in your postings that's what you think.
I don't deserve it , I never hit anyone , am good mum, wife, neighbour etc. Why are you supporting this vile organization then ,say you. Well , because I learned history, read papers etc and as any reasonable person should, am of opinion that literally every institution, from religious orders to secular goverments, army , police, schools, our NHS, political parties, social services - all have high level of corruption, cover up ,all have caused immense suffering to countless people.
But nobody claims let's have no schools, no goverment...they're evil no matter what, abolish...

Why not just hope for the better, learn the lesson, make sure it doesn't happen again, change how things work.
Why not just be horrified ( as I AM at the reported abuse in Ireland ) , yes bring some justice, but at the same time acknowledge that the vast majority of people, members of a said institution, are normal decent people and deserve sympathy that some evil people among them has made them ashamed to be a social worker, mp , a catholic etc

But they are ashamed only because of people like some here, making generalization based on their emotions and narrowmindness... THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO FEEL LIKE THIS.

As for religion being the root of wars, all evil...... Comunists and their unmeasurable abuse and murders ? As far as I know the facts are they were vehemently atheist, their aim was to eradicate all religion, create a secular state...

French revolution, with its hatred for religion...... cue whole villages, children included, put on barges and all drowned , their crime was to side with the local priest and adhere to their believes .

I don't think the Romans were aggressively spreading their religion across continents, more to do with greed for riches and power...

How about Hitler, he didn't start the war to spread christianity did he.

Yes, sometimes, religion was used as an excuse, but am trying to prove that it is more true to say that that it's the dark side of humanity, the evil in some people that causes wars, suffering, not 'religion'.

My mother is a lovely woman who never swears but has said more than once that Nuns are 'fucking bitches'

When she was 11 years old in Eire her mum died. She was imediately expected to look after her father and two younger brothers. At lunch time she had to run home, make lunch for them and then run back to school. There was not enough time.
So everyday she would arrive late back at school (having had no lunch because she had no time to eat) and everyday she would be beaten repeatedly across the knuckles until she cried.
She was supposed to feed the family but my grandads money went first to the bookies, second to the pub and then third were the coins that were placed in the collection plate at mass in full view of Priest and neighbours. She got what was left. She was hungry a lot.
There was one nun who used to take her off and feed her - but she had to pretend she was punishing my mum and stealthily feed her bread and jam or she would have got into huge trouble herself.
Hideous women.

chocolate
I am a catholic. But that does not prevent my condemning what happened. the best way to move forward is to deal robustly,openly and honestly with what happened.
To be honest what happened is the same as always happens when you give disinterested adults power over others - especially children.
Funnily enough when my mum first moved to the UK she worked in a children home and the treatment the children got there was not a great deal better than she had experienced and this was a council home

chocolatekitten, my husband was brought up a Catholic, and my MIL is a very strict one. My husband is horrified and appalled by the abuse, but not surprised. He went to a fancy pants boarding school, and has plenty of stories about twisted evil priests. MIL on the other hand prefers to make excuses (half of the abused are making it up apparantly), explain it away( they were different times, as if that makes a difference)etc etc. No-one is inciting religous hatred here, no-one is persecuting you. But I will not condone a religion which even now is not stepping up to take responsibility for this abuse, which was endemic and widespread.

Oh and You mentioned Hitler, so Godwin's law applies.

Bella - I am surprised at you, usually you are more rational. Yes there was a culture of cruelty in your convent school. That had less to do with Catholocism and convents than with the headteacher being a wicked old woman who was instinctively cruel.

When my DD was in SCBU, there was an evil bully of a nurse who repeatedly tore me to shreds for no reason. She was not cruel because she happened to be a nurse. It does not mean there is a culture of cruelty in the NHS or that nurses in general are instinctively cruel.

However bullys and predators are always attracted to roles which give them power over others. In Ireland of days gone by that used to be in the church heirarchy. It happened in children's homes here as well. It still happens today, with revelations about care homes for the elderly being an example of that.

What really sickens me is that these abuses have been and are covered up. The people who protect abusers should also face criminal sanction.

chocolatek;

i'm not spreading hatred by admitting some catholic priests did serious damage....that is stating a fact.....it also doesn't mean i will stop being a catholic...of course i wont.