Irish Catholic abuse-

[tiredemma]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

Im surprised it hasnt been mentioned on here.

Very sad- Disgraceful

And here is the executive summary of the report here

Read it if you can, because quite frankly it makes you want to weep. As glastocat's quotes note, this was not a few bad apples. This was not a failure of the system. This was the system. Here are a few choice quotes below:

"A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from."

"Sexual abuse was endemic in boys? institutions...When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the response of the religious authorities was to transfer the offender to another location where, in many instances, he was free to abuse again."

"Children were frequently hungry and food was inadequate, inedible and badly prepared in many schools. Witnesses spoke of scavenging for food from waste bins and animal feed."

"Accommodation was cold, spartan and bleak. Sanitary provision was primitive in most boys? schools and general hygiene facilities were poor."

"Private matters such as bodily functions and personal hygiene were used as opportunities for degradation and humiliation. Personal and family denigration was widespread, particularly in girls? schools. There was constant criticism and verbal abuse and children were told they were worthless."

I have noticed a pattern in this discussion. People are very keen to read any posts with another abuse story and nod their heads in sympathy ( rightly so ) but the moment a post comes up defending the majority of decent priests and nuns against blatant generalizations of some mumsnetters , others protest
Words like 'apologists' and ' typical excusing catholic behaviour' start flying about. Why are you trying to silence people who had nothing but positive experiences with the catholic church and try to share to maintain some balance in opinions.

I know this topic is specifically about what happened in those institutions in Ireland but it quickly became a ground for general prejudice against the church being expressed. Only natural that I feel moral obligation to defend the good people in frocks, THE ONLY type I came across personally in my rather long life.

I was born in a catholic family in a catholic country ( cue loads of contact with priests etc). My family was catholic only in name, tradition, my parents were not so much atheist but agnostics, leading secular lives apart from sending us kids to church every Sunday ( seen as hypocritical in my early teens, but then, when I consciously chose to stay catholic when 18-19, I was grateful).

I can honestly say, well I know as a fact that any psychological problems I recognized in myself when an adult ( problems lots of people have, not of most serious nature) stemmed from mental abuse by my secular parents and teachers from my very secular schools.

Any true goodness , compassion , joyful memories , I experienced among people in many church activities I attended. These were people of all ages ( I belonged to many youth church groups) , lay people as well as priests and nuns. NOT ONE example of any mistreatment, quite opposite.

My sister spent a year in a convent, as a novice, as she wanted to become a nun when 20 years old, she is now a wife and mum, it wasn't for her. She only has good memories of her time there, not one example of an 'effing bitch' nun.
But why didn't she want to stay there ? It was too hard ! All these 'horrid ' nuns work hard all day visiting hospitals to bring comfort to the sick, distributing ' meals on wheels' and spending time talking to the lonely old folk. My sister said it was very patience testing, having to listen to same stories for hours day in day out but these old souls were SOO grateful, some literally kissed her hands...

Chocolatekitten what is different here is that it is not one or two cases but 60 years of sustained institutionalised abuse. I am very very glad you had positive experiences, but the point here is that many children did not.

I also work in a profession where people are beside themselves with gratitude at times, but those that are found abusing that position or behaving unprofessionally are removed from the register and prosecuted if necessary.

We are all answerable for our actions, not just in the 'next life' but in this life, under the laws of this land.

In defence fo chocolatekitten, Ms Rigby, we're all upset about what happened; your position is not unique, but surely it's rather unreasonable to lay the blame at the door of every single practising Catholic? Denouncing the church does nothing to help these abused children. Nothing.

cestlavie

Your comment about the Catholic Church institutionally abusing basic human rights for centuries, indeed millenia...

Very wrong, very unhistorical.

Yes sometimes, in some instances, agree.

But please, as just one example to the contrary, go and study the post second world war history of Poland.
You will find widespread abuse of basic human rights by atheist socialist bodies and the Catholic Church systematically and institutionally fighting and standing up for people . On all levels, bishops and archbishops were imprisoned for years ( Karol Wyszynski most famous ) for defending the freedom of the common Polish people.
Another priest, Jerzy Popieluszko, is a national hero, brutally murdered for supporting workers in their protest.

These priests were doing it for the best possible motives as their written legacy shows ( diaries from prisons, for example,published and popular in Poland).

The catholic church was a true haven for the Polish people during those troubled times.

Now, going back in times. Have you not heard of countless priests or religious catholic laymen , living in leper's villages across the world ,caring for the unfortunate inhabitants , completely rejected by secular society. You can understand why they were rejected but, you see, this is were you should appreciate that religion can be VERY GOOD and bring relief to humanity. For the sake of those lepers wasn't it fortunate that there were some people willing to sacrifice their lives because they were taught great compassion by their church and also could see beyond this life...

Who is laying "the blame at the door of every single practising Catholic"? People are discussing the Catholic Church as an institution, not ordinary members of the public!

"Denouncing the church does nothing to help these abused children. Nothing."

And to what other crimes/events should we apply that dubious logic Abby?

How is speaking out against something pointless just because it's in the past? Should we just forget about it and carry on blindly following the norm like sleepwalking sheep?

That's exactly what too many people have been doing in Ireland for decades.

Jeesh

Glastocat - that's what I've been trying to get across - this wasn't hidden at all. What happened to these children was what was planned, by the Church, to happen to them.
That's why I think, AL, that every Catholic has to look at their position. Why would you want to align yourself with an organisation that did this on purpose ? Why would you want to align yourself with an organisation that even now is trying to cover up and prolong the suffering of the victims?
In my experience it will most definitely help victims if rsponsibility is acknowledged. And it will certainly help another generation of children if abusers are no longer alowed to raom free.

Bananarama;

my mum was the same as yours...very cold... never said she loved me....she was taught by nuns in galway.

i think i am beginning to understand her.

Litchick,

You are starting to sound a bit paranoid... 'was planned', ' on purpose'.
I guess I know what you are trying to say, but the choice of words is OTT.

As if torure machines were installed in cellars when they built the places and documents found with 'objective - make them suffer by any means '. I think not.

chocolate Kitten - individuals within an organisation tortured and abused children.

Other individuals helped cover it up.

That is fact. It has nothing to do with any other people who are in the organisation.

The practice of attempting to twist a criticism of an institution that instinctively protects and shields its own, regardless of whether they are guilty, into a personal attack on all adherents is utterly intellectually dishonest .

Daftpunk - it's taken a hell of a long time. My relationship with my mum is much better now especially since I've had my dd.

When I go back to Ireland to visit I throw the arms around her and give her a big hug. Never used to do this as it felt like she didn't want me to.

It's sad that thanks to some dirty fucker of a priest I missed out on that for 20-odd ears

Chocolate Kitten, what would you like to happen right now about this? What should be done or not done?

Chocolate

You have, quite possibly wilfully ,misunderstood the substantive point of my post.
The example I gave of the lunch time beating was exactly that - one example.
My mother was beaten, abuse and degraded by most of the nuns in that institution with the exception of the one who snuck her food.

There were a few nuns who did not engage in the abuse but they lacked the fire of the fervour to stand up for an 11 year old bereaved child in the face ofthat abuse.

You may well know nice nuns. I know there are and were many. Butthe culture at my mothers school was abusive and the fucking witches that ran it were responsible.

She lost her mother, she was alone, she was vulnerable and they beat her.

I think it is therefpre no ones business what she calls them.
I think it is also to her credit that she contuinued to respect her religion and told us of her experiences only when we were adult.

It does you little credit that in trying to defend the outrageous history of our church you choose to be snyde and disparaging about a woman who has born imeasurable suffering. Actually it epitomises the very 'deny and divert' culture that is bringing our religion into such disrepute.
You kind of embody the problem....

Late in the day but I wanted to respond to Lucifera's point about corporal punishment in Catholic schools in London and to clear up a couple of points about corporal punishment in the UK.

I went to a catholic convent school in London in the 70's and corporal punishment was used - the head (who was a nun as were most of the teachers) used to give the cane. it was the punishment of last resort ie they weren't beating us black and blue but someone went most weeks. This was a primary school BTW so age 4/5 upwards.

Corporal punishment was banned in the state sector in 1986 and in the private sector in 1998.

I am sure that the approach to discipline used will have varied depending on what school you went to - just the idea that nuns are sweet and lovely and non violent is not my experience - some of them are bloody terrifying. And of course they have god on their side - so being beaten by a nun when you're 6 is psychologically damaging i would say as well as physically painful.

(Incidentally i kept my head down and was very very good, so luckily avoided the cane).

Anyway off to read the rest of the trhead now!

Why is this thread pandering to a person who keeps defending the status quo of their group

pagwatch

Very personal, very aggressive post.

You're accusing me of purposefully misunderstanding your previous post, why would you assume that, it's like saying I'm a scheming so and so, I can assure you I'm a straightforward person .
I don't think I 'misunderstood' your message anyway.
Have every sympathy with your mum, just said pity that because of her experiences she tarnishes the name of every nun .
I had a right to feel offended too, thinking of my lovely unselfish great aunt being labelled effing so and so.

And if your mum refers only to those particular individuals then apology but it didn't come across like that, maybe your fault.

You don't know me yet your post is very hateful, shame. I apparently epitomise and embody the problem, ie abuse of the children or cover up. Oh, dear, I would be scared to meet you in RL

Very personal, very aggressive post.

Bollocks, you've sought from the beginning to make this all about YOU, to suit your own ends - defending the Catholic Church's indefensible attitude to these crimes.

It's totally out of order to complain that something's personal when you've set out to make it so.

The outpouring of disgust and horror at the systematic abuse of children, is not ?general prejudice against the church?. Prejudice means making a judgement about something before you know the full facts. We all know what the catholic church did, so it?s not prejudice, it?s judgement based on known facts.

I don?t understand why you feel the need to defend good people in frocks on a thread about bad people in frocks who were systematically supported and succoured in their wickedness by the catholic church, Chocolate. Nobody on this thread is attacking good people in frocks so you are setting up an Aunt Sally.

You seem unable or unwilling to grasp why people are so angry about this; it?s very easy to hind behind the ?oh you?re all prejudiced anti-catholics? argument, but it simply won?t do, it is not good enough, it?s like accusing people who were horrified about Auschwitz of just being mindlessly anti-German (there you go, this side of the debate can use the old Nazi symbolism as well). Would it help if I explained that by refusing to hand over the perpetrators of the systematic abuse and torture - and possibly murder as well by the looks of it ? of helpless children, for prosecution, the catholic church is continuing that abuse today. This is not something that happened in history; it is happening now. Every minute the church protects someone who abused a child thirty or forty years ago, it is continuing to participate in the abuse of the weak by the strong.

It is beyond disgusting.

I simply quietly disagree with you, the last posters.
I never schemed , sought out to achieve anything, very hurtful to be accused of something you know was not your intention AT ALL. I stand by what I wrote, my view on the subject, what was so wrong with it.
I do not defend the abusers.I only protested against calling all church evil. I don't understand you. Just see people attacking me, what did I do sooo wrong ? Not a nice place, mumsnet.