Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

Oh and monkeytrousers, I do not agree with your interpretation of "proportional response".
You obviously do not understand the workings of the Law and unwittingly contradict what you've been saying so far about Hamas.

There is a Law and ways and means to implement it and sanction offenders.

In this instance International Law that recognises Israel but forbids it continuing settlements and from perpetuating a humanitarian crisis (never mind various encroachments on the Geneva convention such as arbitrary detention and torture).

Now Palestinian children are "slapped" (actually murdered) to use you own analogy but of course it would be unthinkable for Palestinians to adhere to your twisted exeptions on proportional response.
I really don't see you point.
I think Obama is biting his tongue on this one.

But hey, Israel is using a disproportionate response. But of course they are just defending themselves.

1 to 100 death ratio. See the proportion in this?

Just explain why is a Palestinian life worthless?

Interesting to catch up.....

Interesting to see that Donnie does not condemn the Hamas leader who has stated the intention to kill Jews and jewish children ( god forbid) worldwide.

Interesting to note the comment on the other thread by ReturnisaBasicHumanRight that the Holocaust never happened.

Gloves are off now aren't they?

Some posters - Donnie/ReturnisabasicHumanRight are now bravely coming out of their corner and playing their hand. And what is their hand? It is the same hand of cards held by Hamas, and before them by the PLO and by FATAH and before them by the PLF ( remember the 1985 cruise liner hijacking by palestinian militants in which a disabled Jewish wheelchair bound man was shot and thrown overboard for no reason other than that he was a Jew ( not Israeli - note). It is teh same card played by Black September ( remember the 1972 Olympic Massacre of Israeli Athletes murdered in cold blood for no reason other than that they were israelis).

It is the same card that has been played throughout history. Its name - the Hatred of the Jew. Those in this nasty insiduous club take various forms. There are those like Yassin and Rayan and their ilk in Hamas who make little bones about it and delcare their intent and desire to puruse Jewish ( note please - not Israeli - but Jewish )adults and children worldwide and put an end to them citing verses from the Hadith in their support . There are those like Arafat who played the statesman whilst secretely encouraging and endorsing the murder of Jews anywhere and everywhere ( he gave the orders to Black ~September and the PLF).

There are those like Ahmedinejad who freely announce their intention to build a nucleur weapon to blow Israel into oblivion but show their true hand by stating, as an afterthought, that the Holocaust of course never happened and was invented by the Jews and the Western World to overthrow the palestinians from israel and even holding world conferences on the Holocaust inviting others on the planet who subscribe to their same sick rantings.

From which we can see the true issue here. Hatred of the Jew. It matters not what israel does to appease or not appease, whether Israel exists or not. This will always always continue and this is why the leaders of the palestinians will never ever make peace.

Therefore israel's primary concern has always been and always will be its security. The rest of ther world can bleat about medicines, supplies and a fair fight but before being benevolent enough to ensure that the terrorists in these territories have medicines , it has to ensure the safety of its kids in schools and its patients in hospitals .

I find all these elected terrorist organisations truly terrifiying as i know there is no possiblity of ever making peace wiht them. The only language they understand is force and their only dialogue is Jihad. Understand that and you are beginning to understand the picture. Ignore/deny/pussyfoot aroudn that and you will never understand the conflict.

Yes, why can Israel retaliate for rocket attacks but Palestinians expected to take whatever is thrown at them? It's double standards.

The answer is not more of the same, it's an immediate ceasefire. MT I like your idea of locking up both parties of leaders for their own good. The international community has to step in and enforce peace, and the US must play a leading role, rather than vetoing every step towards resolution, as it has up til now.

Where is this other thread Lisa? That post should be reported.

Please don't think that everyone who is anti Israel government actions is also anti-semitic or a holocaust denier.

And don't forget that Arafat and Fatah eventually recognised the right of Israel to exist.

oh lisalisa....you are so, so deluded and bigoted. Every single time somebody complains against the actions of the Israeli Government you accuse them of anti semitism and 'hatred of the Jew'. Those are your words - not anybody else's. It is an empty and pointless argument. You are using it to mask your own racism which has been demonstrated amply in your earlier posts.

Of course I condemn Hamas for - allegedly ( because I have not seen/heard this ) saying they will 'kill all Jewish children' (or words to that effect) but you won't condemn the Israeli Govt for killing Palestinian children will you? why is it not the same?

Your argument is that if the Palestinians voted for Hamas ( they had a choice between Hamas and Fatah as I recall - some choice)then they deserve all they get. You actually said "when I refer to 'this murderous group of people' I refer to the Palestinians as this". How you can not see that this is a racist, bigoted comment illustrates your stance perfectly. You have 'shown your hand' really nicely there. "ranting, raving , lunatic Mullahs" - what would you say of someone substituted the word 'mullah' for 'rabbi'? you would accuse them of anti semitism. But it's ok for you to be anti muslim- is that it? just clarify that for us will you please?

Well the situation continues to deteriorate and I just caught a representative of the UN medical force on bbc news 24 almost in tears at the humanitarian hell which exists in Gaza- the hell which the Israeli Government denies exists.80% of the population without power, running water....but I expect you would claim this is a lie.

It's impossible to be consistant in this arguyment though - that's part of what I'm trying to illustrate. Taking any side is a redundant exercise if what people want is peace in the middle east.

Of course it's hell Donnie. Hamas is depending on it. That's its currebcy.

lisalisa i suspect returnisabasichumanright was/is a troll. What he/she said was deleted, thankfully. I just wanted to say there is a middle ground in all of this, one can abhor Israel's current actions and feel terrible sadness for Palestinian children and civilians, whilst still believe Israel has a right to exist and exist safely.

if you take that position MT then you engage in dialogue; I have always said there has to be dialogue with Hamas - what on earth can be achieved otherwise? your posts are contradictory- for instance you say 'taking sides is redundant' but make your own support for Israel and demonisation of the Palestinians very clear.

Even Tony Blair admitted to Ed Sturton this morning on 'Today' that dialogue with Hamas would be desirable. So called 'enemies' have always negotiated secretly - including the American govt talking to Talebani in Afghanistan.

Donnie - "deluded and bigoted".

Deluded means mistaken, taken in by something. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am able to see the situation for what it is . Far from being "deluded" therefore I am "informed".

I would be "deluded", yes ,were I to ignore the Hatred of the Jew in all of this and to agree that if Israel could please just step gently off the world map and stop making such goddamn trouble for the peace loving palestinians and their sponsers and advocates, all would be smelling lovely in the garden of roses once more.

I also do not think yuo are "deluded" although it would make you a far nicer prospect if you were. I think you are firmly of the ilk of those that I placed you previously in . Aren't you now? Feel better with your mask off?

Generous of you too to condemn Hamas for their despicable comment ( posted by someone else originally btw not me but does not surpise me as we've been hearing this on and off from these lunatics for years) even though your "condemnation " was so peppered with exclusions and disclaimers I'm sure it hurt greatly to spit it out didn't it?

"bigoted" - means being blindly attached to a creed etc.

Am I blind? I don't think so. Again , I see things for what they really are. So do you Donnie, don't you? I'd like to call you "blind" to the facts but that wouldn't be fair. You know the facts and the reality don't you now?
"Substituting Mullahs for Rabbis" - why would someone do that ? Is it the Rabbis who urgently preach the spilling of Muslim blood in teh most voilent and painful way possible?

I think you'll find throughout history that the Jewish religion does not prosletyse or kill and maim to achieve its objectives. Instead it turns away converts and tries only to leave within its own walls seeking little contact with the outsdie world. Islam on the other hand actively prosletyses - thougsands of Jews have died throughout histroy refusing conversion at the sword of Muslims. Jews have been persecuted throughout histroy in arab lands and in muslim countries and still are today. Yhe persecution is led - note led- by the Imams and Mullahs and nowhere more so vocally and disgracefully than in Gaza. Cue Finsbury Park Mosque - need any more evidence of Mad Preachers than there? Again - do they call for the destruction of Israel or all Jews????

Donnie is of course well aware of this .

Other posters are not.

Donnie - presumably you do not deny the Holocaust took place do you? Do you charge the Jews with distorting the figures or inventing the gas chambers. Come on now out of your corner ...off with your disguise. Let's find out who Donnie is .

oh dear. There you go again!

No Ruty - ReturnisabasicHumanRight was not a troll. Why would he/she be? Just because they post somehting abhorrent does that make them a troll? Have you never come across holocaust denial before? It is simply the extreme end of the spectrum in hating the jew. AFter all if you can wipe out of histroy the fact that 6 milion of us were destroyed by the Nazis to the tune of a deaf world that did nothing to help it is far easier to deny any sympathy or to remember the atrocities. What shocks me is that in the lifetime of holocaust survivors this is happening. In the bare face of those who were there and survived they deny it happened.

Fifty years from now when all the survivors are gone they will have a far easier time belive me and far more unsuspecting peopel will give time to their views.

Donnie - you didn't deny my last sentence did you? That was a challenge you know designed to oust you. We hvae a right to know with whom we are debating. So , do you deny the holocaust , do you charge the Jews with fiddling the figures etc etc?

Lisa, no one here is even beginning to question the existence of Israel.

But we should be allowed to say it was built not only with the sweat and blood of immigrant Jews but also incidentally with that of displaced Palestinians.
That's not jew/Israel bashing.
It's a fact and the founding fact that EXPLAINS why the Palestinians are angry. Why 3 generations down the line they elected Hamas.

It is very tiresome discussing this subject with the threat of being accused of anti semitism and revisionism.

The whole world accepts that Hamas is unreasonnable and provocative but they have their reasons which are good enough reasons. Resist occupation.
Why not admit that Israel is exactly in the same position. Unreasonable and provocative in their treatment of Palestinians, but with reasons. Resist eviction.

There is no way forward unless Israel acknowledges there is a moral equivalence.
Jews can not continue to hide behind the Holocaust to justify their right to exist. Israel is now a recognised state. Stop the paranoia.

lisalisa- you are ridiculous. But actually I feel sorry for you because you are so deluded.

You think that encouraging debate and dialogue with Hamas makes someone a holocaust denier? how sad . I can see you aren't going to change.

"1 to 100 death ratio. See the proportion in this?

Just explain why is a Palestinian life worthless?"

I don't think a Palestinian life is worthless. Hamas do. They make no bones about using their civilians as shields. They have no issue with suicide bombers killing themselves and innocent people.

That is the kind of people that Israel is dealing with. And negotiation is a long shot.

Donnie, do you think Israel should be wiped off the map? And all Jews pushed into the sea?

Did anyone see the picture on the front page of the Guardian today? 3 dead children and their distraught father.

Donnie - answer the question. Do you or don't you deny the holocaust/charge the Jews with changing the facts/figures?

no I don't winkywinkola - do you?

You are right winky. Hamas do. I'll go even further: Palestinians do. What have they got to loose. Better die defending your land than live under abject occupation.

Isn't that what every resistant thought during the german occupation?
But of course once again, silly me, how can I possibly think these Palestinians beast are human beings?
They can not possibly be classified as resistance. What? where? who have they been resisting for the last 5 decades?

And for the record I am not charging any other poster on this site with this question to answer. Only Donnie. So , no , I am not saying that anyone who encourages dialogue with Hamas has suspect tendencies Donnie - only you.

Why won't you answer the question. We are waiting.......

the problem here lisalisa is that you are hysterical and you are deliberately accusing those who disagree with the actions of the Israeli government and army of anti semitism. Not because you think they are but because it deflects from the racist comments you made on this thread. I have repeated those comments and asked you whether or not you think they are racist and if you think it is ok to make these comments but you won't answer. So there it is. A pointless hysterical set of rantings.

If you really think you can be taken seriously by shouting 'holocaust denier' at those who disagree with you then I think you need some help. You are not getting me riled up - although I can see you are trying hard.

Lisa, historically weren't the Jews persecuted far worse in Europe than in the Middle East? AFAIK Jews, Muslims and Christians have lived in peaceful coexistance there for most of history and in most places.

Of course anti-semitism existed and exists. But to cry "anti-semitism" every time someone disagrees with anything the Israeli govt does is not going to get us anywhere. In fact it only adds fuel to the fires of the hatemongers.