Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

You can't seperate them. You really can't. Hamas rules like the Taleban. Children in Palestine are brought up taught that jews are dogs who deserve to be wiped out. There is no option to disagree.

I don't have any problem anyone demonstrating againbst violence. But a truely humanitaian demonstration would not be taking sides. It would be demonstaring against violence not Israel or Palestine - or both at the very least. That's just what I think, though it hardely amounts to a hill of beans..

thank you monkeytrousers, have been lurking on this thread and unable to make a coherent posting, so i totally agree with what you have posted. at least you are intelligent enough to post what i am thinking, IFYSWIM !

Bet you can spell better than me

the answer is: they have no friends. None. The only people who they can turn to is Hamas. Oh and btw if anyone is interested back in the day when Fatah was in power in Gaza, Hamas was actually supported by the Israelis. Go figure.

I'm not supporting the Israelis over the Palestinians, Donnie. Just that violence and hatred only begets more violence and hatred. The blame game is endless, someone can always pull something out of the hat to say, 'you did this first, so you are to blame'.

Interesting article here if anyone is interested.

Aside from the politics of the situation from a moment can we not agree that civilians have suffered terribly under both the blockade and the current bombardment? This amounts to collective punishment and is ilegal under international law. Is that not worth demostrating for?

agree with you mt. Its so hypocritical. In answer to your question donnie: According to the muslim world they are all friends of Palestine, indeed they are all brothers. The other muslim countries spread hatred for jews and Americans on the back of it.

that's 1.5 billion muslims by the way!

Yeah, Sputnik, a demo agaonst violence per se, not anti-Isaeli or pro-Palestinan, which is how these usually pan out. The situations a mess. Get angry with bith of them. Knock their bloody heads together.

Donnie, the Palestinians have the entire Muslim population of the world on their side including all their immediate neighbours. It's the Israelis who have no friends (apart from the US) and hardly any land. Even what land they do have, their neighbours would like to take away (recent quote from senior Hamas figure "we will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity"). This is what Israel is really up against.

Or better still, be a true radical and go on the demo carrying two plackards, one that says, 'Freedom for Palestine' and another that says, 'Freedom for Israel'.

Smilley its all too easy to feel outraged and march to support one side or another...without actually having a solution yourself!

Israel has been fought over since biblical times, there were probably well meaning parents marching against the Crusades a thousand years ago - but its self-righteous bollocks if you can't actually contribute in a positive way to a solution. And greater minds than MN have tried for long enough.

Actually I agree Hamas has been bad news for the Palestinians on the whole. But I see why they were elected, out of desperation basically.

And in fact other Arab states have been rubbish at supporting the Palestinians, especially the ones with the money.

Yes, but there may be a reason why they have been so rubbish Sputnik. Perhaps the Palestinian people are being used.

Yes I think we can agree on that point Mary

I agree about Hamas, they are doing a great diservice to the Palestinian cause.
I also agree that no Israeli/Palestinian is any better or worse than another.

And of course I know the jews have experienced systematic persecustion, but that does not give them the right to then persecute others. In this context it is irrelevant.

It is the state of Israel and it's policies that oppress, and it's backing by the US in this, that I feel I must speak against.

Until the oppression is really recognised by the world and presure can be put on the US and Israel, then the persecution of the Plaestinians will continue as it has for decades.

The Israeli's have all the cards, the army, the power, the land, money, support from the most powerful nation in the world, the Palestinans have nothing. Thier plight is hopeless and hopelessness and despair, unfortunately will lead to desparate, terrible acts. This is not unique to the Plaestinians, it is a characteristic of the human psyche.

Your arguemnt of not taking sides, baffles me. Would you have adovated not taking sides with the oppressed black people in SA?? The Plaestinian situation has been likened to this by many.

Imagine for a moment, if blacks were still oppressed in SA and had taken to random acts of terrorism against civilian whites (which could have been a likely scenario) so the white governemnt bombed the townships killing 100x times more balck people women and children, but justified this due to 'necessary security' for the white popluation.

Would you have remained impartial? Would the barbaric acts of yuung desparate black youths have caused yuo to feel the white governemnt had a right to bomb townships? Did you feel there was no power discreapancy and oppressed group in SA that needed support and recognition and pressure on the government from the rest of the world?

Of course it's not exactly the same, but it's not entirely different either.

No black SA was/is any better than any white SA, but the system favoured one group, a group that felt hopeless and was despairing, which led to culture of ugly violence that exists in the townships today. If you systematically oppress poeple you eventaully brutalise them.

That's why I take a side and why I speak out in a small, insignifcant, probably ineffective way. But I'll continue.Sometimes a group does need to be sided with

Some of you may notice this is a copy of an earlier post, mostI suspect won't and certainly no one has answered it.

And the fact you suggest that the Israeli's have little land demonstrates you know almost nothing about the current situation the conflict and history.

gaza is the most densly populated area on earth. It is basicially a huge prison controlled by the Ireali's, full of Palestinians forced thier as refugess folowing the war in 1948 when hundreds of thousand of palestinians fled in terror following the murder of an entire village by the Israeli's. They thought they were going to wiped out. If that is not ethnic cleansinh I don't know what is. They have since lived as refugess in lebanon or under Israeli control with Israeli settlers encroaching gradually and systematically on the small amount of land they have.

I think there is alot if ignorance here.

I think too many poeple see ths as some sort of 'dispute' or eqaul conflict with grievances on both sides.

It is not.

If the Israeli's want peace they need to give justice. Justice which they have denied for nearly 60 years.

Israel are contrevebing numerous resolutions and continue to ignore various calls by the UN. Strabgely that doesn't seem to worry the US, unlike with Iraq.

I understand why poeple in gaza have turned to hamas, I understand why they hate the Iraeli's, I deny anyone to go through what they have, and have not have hatred in thier hearts. sadly. Desperatly sadly. For both sides. But true.

I wish with all my haert they didn't, they just turn more and more poeple away from thier cause, poeple who cannot see beyond Hamas and their rockets, when it is really about final justice for the Palestinians.

Who would have thought a Jewish nation would so systematically persecute another group aftre all they have endured? So many jews who first supported and wanted a jewish homeland have become so ashamed of the state it has become and what it is doing to others in their name.

Thank you Monkeytrousers you have articulated perfectly what I have clumbsily been trying say on various threads!

From Wikipedia. For anyone intersted in greater understanding of the conflict:

The Deir Yassin massacre refers to the killing of between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[1] the estimate generally accepted by scholars,[2][3] during and possibly after the battle[4][5] at the village of Deir Yassin (also written as Dayr Yasin or Dir Yassin) near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine by Jewish irregular forces (Irgun and Lehi) between 9 April and 11 April 1948. It occurred while Jewish Yishuv forces fought to break the siege of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of the Mandate.

Contemporary reports, originating apparently from a commanding officer in Jerusalem of one of the irregular forces involved (the Irgun), Mordechai Ra'anan[6], gave an initial estimate of 254 killed.[7] The size of the figure had a considerable impact on the conflict in creating panic and became a major cause of the 1948 Palestinian exodus

I wish it were irrelevant. If it was irrelevant, some progress could be made. All the signs are that these issues are being squeezed for every relevance they have. I could forgive it in a Palestinian maybe, and an Israeli ? that kind of visceral emotionalism is understandable there - but us standing watching on the sidelines? No, I just don?t buy it.

People pass their own narratives onto this conflict, and both Israel and Palestine are guilty of abusing our narcissism and stupidity. We really need to wake up. We are watching a couple of teenage boys knife each other repeatedly, wounding themselves and each other irrevocably.. In real life we would drag them apart and keep them separated, knowing both were caught in a madness.

We?d not trust their instincts knowing they were caught up in a blood lust. Here we have two putative states fighting for survival, each tearing strips out of the other ? and what do we do? We egg them on, dole out blame and justifications. These are sick, paranoid states. If they were people they ?d be sectioned for their own good. Neither will ever prostrate themselves for the other. They will both commit suicide before that happens. That is actually what were watching. Joint suicide. And we abet that by taking sides in such utter madness.

There is no understanding the conflict Smiley. It's a War of attrition - oit's zero sum, There are and never will be any winners while their are fools like us willing to fight for lunatics.

I looked up Gaza on wiki earlier this evening - I was talking to my daughter about the current situation, trying & failing to give her a coherent narrative, so I checked out wiki & followed all the different links, but it's impossible. I don't think even people who've lived there for the last 60 years could manage it.

Both sides need to stop what they're doing. Neither side will. There isn't an easy peaceful solution - there isn't a solution full stop. It's horrible.

I think it is possible to separate the Palestinians from Hamas - there was someone from a US foreign policy study organization that said that there have been surveys of Palestinians AND Israelis and that a similar-sized majority in BOTH communities want there to be a sensible two-state solution. the analyst ended this information by saying that the trouble is that fundamentalists on both sides are more likely to back up their beliefs with aggressive action.

in this situation it seems only fair to back up moderate people in seeking a peaceful solution - if you look at Avaaz.org and Amnesty International you will see some fair minded views of what is currently happening and a peaceful long-term outcome is not served for anyone by the current bombings.

so I'd support people out and demonstrating tomorrow

Very long - but a thoughtful contribution(in my opinion)if you are interested.

From: Starhawk

MT you have not answered my question regarding the South Africa analogy, which has been made over and over again, by no less than nelson Mandela.

Sometimes, there are oppressed groups whose right for justice is overlooked by a more powerful agressor.

It descends to a war of attrition, I agree, and I too would like all violence to stop, rockets and bombing, I am not protesting for Hamas, I am not protedting because I want Paletininas to attack Israel ( I absolutely don't), I am protesting because I want Israel and the US to finally admit the injustices to the Plaestinians and to go about righting these at last beacuse only then will the violence end.

Conflicts are not always eqaul, sometims there is a huge power differential and sometimes there is an genuine and understandable grievance underlying the conflict.

See my South Africa analogy.

See World War II.(would you have said to french resistance 'oh stop perpetuating the violence it just makes it worse)

See Russia and chechyna.

See Tibet and China.

See east Timor and Indonesia.

See current situation in Zimbabwe.

Often you cannot just take the line 'don't be silly boys just be friends' and you have to take the line 'stop fighting boys, but you, the bigger boy, with all the sweets ,whose been making the little boys life a misery start sharing and stop the bullying.'

and sometimes it needs alot of people to complain to the teachers until pressure is put on the bigger boy to play fair.

Protesting is a attempt to put pressure on to right injustices.

And,whose talking about 'fighting for lunatics??'

Here's where I stopped reading - because I've heard it all before anbd it's such an con

"The Israeli ambassador speaks movingly of the terror felt by Israeli
children as Hamas rockets explode in the night. I agree with him?that
no child should have her sleep menaced by rocket fire, or wake in the
night fearing death.

But I can?t help but remember one night on the Rafah border, sleeping
in a house close to the line, watching the children dive for cover as
bullets thudded into the walls..."

But what? Poor children are more worthty than provledged ones? Bullshit.

Stop pulling the emotional, shameless manipulative strings and get a sense of perspective. It's nuts. If you take sides, you're adding to the problem. You think people taking 'your' side (whichever that is) will stop chiuldren being killed?

Posts like that make it clear that children are the currency here. It's a moral abyss.