what do you think? was the resturant right?

[2shoes]

or is it discrimination

I now await being asked to not take dd to places incase she puts people off their food.

I don't understand why you're angry either custy. You made the drunk comparison - it was responded to without any form of personal attack. IME anti-social behaviour that arises from a disability is often compared to drunkeness/unruliness/bad behaviour and I think the comparison is erroneous. Simply because someone chooses to be drunk or unruly - they don't choose a disability.

According to the bit I cut from the paper written by a friend of Catherine Blow- linked to above the bits about spitting on the floor, and trousers falling down are not true anyway.

I still see it as a simple choice. Either people with disabilities have as much right to access public spaces and go about their daily lives as the rest of us. Or they don't. There isn't anything else to decide. No shades of grey - therein lies a dodgy world.

[Now at a personal level I have no problem with special sessions- although I know some with disabilities do- I would far rather go to special disabled session for anything if at all possible - particularly eating out. But these are few and far between/non-existent so we sometimes get forced to mix with the non-disabled in order to have any sort of life - and we should be able to do that without restriction.]

alienbump, the restauranteur hasn't made any allegations about angry outbursts. So presumably there haven't been any - he's been eager to make other extreme claims against her. Your experience of Huntingdon's may be different, but it's not necessarily what is happening to this lady right now.

If there had been an alegation of agression it wuld be different (saying as someone who spent an hour in a car yesterday with an aggressive sn 9 year old due to proximity of too many potential weapons- sticks etc- with 9 yr old in tears wanting to play with brothers / other kids ).

As for support- if only, its just not easy to find. I imagine she could probably get Direct Payments to pay for someone but I personally wouldn't want to pay for someone to be a 'friend', other family and friends can vanish or have their own lives.

I find myself drawn back to this thread. After a while, my aunt, who had HD, basically did what some posters think is best - she was simply too embarassed and self-conscious about what was happening to her body. She stopped going out, (even though she had family to take her), as she didn't want people to see her having difficulty eating, moving, etc.

that's very sad, chisigirl. Still, at least the selfish bastards who don't want to share space with disabled people were spared the sight of someone they despise in the same restaurant, huh?

I think anger is symptom of Huntingdon's as we have a friend who has the early symptoms and one is extreme outbursts of anger that are quite frightening actually. His wife was so frightened she left him, which is equally tragic for him.

It is a truly terrible disease and I wish the lady well. However, it is a shame also for the restaurant owner as he needs to make money otherwise the business closes - simple as that.

i am sorry that i haven't been articulate enough to help you understand why i am angry. there is nothing else i can say that would add to what i have already put on this thread.

eh? I thought most of the up front posting on this thread was reserved fo very specific posters whohave made a couple of posts which stick in my craw, f one.

I think most people (on MN anyway) are supportive and sensitive to disbility - which is why other attitudes stand out so much.

So out of interest what is the answer?

do we
a) accept that people with disabilities can go wherever they want whenever they want - even if their disability makes them antisocial?
b) do we decide that some things are not suitable for those with disabilities that are antisocial and they shouldn't be allowed access? If so who would judge? Should we provide alternative access for those with disabilities? So for example restaurants that welcome those with disabilities (even antisocial ones) on Wednesday nights. Is this workable? (the only activity with dedicated disabled access in my city of 1/4 million is 2 hours of swimming a week).
c) do we decide that if you have a disability that upsets others that you should just stay at home.

I am genuinely interested in what people think the answer is. Many people are not reasonable when faced with someone with an antisocial disability (although all mumsnetters may be- who knows). I don't believe you can refuse access to someone because of a disability- even when it is antisocial - it's a very slippery slope. IN fact most people with disabilities that are antisocial take the same route as chisigirl's aunt (or their family make that decision for them).

Actually having lots of alternative access would help my family - as the 'right' to access anything at anytime is quite hard to apply when the disability is antisocial - we can do it- but we have the run the gauntlet of tuts and stares and outright gawps- and it gets really boring when it's every time you go out the door. I would imagine HD is the same. Take the cinema- I think ds1 would love it-I could get in afree as his carer but I think he needs a special showing to go and there are no special sessions in this city- the closest I'm aware of is a 2 hour drive away.

However, even with special sessions people moan. There's always someone outside the swimming moaning about the pool being closed on a Sunday from 11-1 (presumably those with disabilities should only go at 7am on a Sunday or something).

So - if antisocial disabilities are a problem for small business owners what's the answer? (I still think he should have embraced it - it's a sector crying out for access to social spaces).

In an ideal world, those with disability should be able to go where they want, when they want. In reality I think it should be the big companies / conglomerates that make a stand and provide services for all. I think it is too much for small sole trader businesses who are trying to keep a roof over their head and their business in profit.

just want to say any posts I have made that might have sounded like a dig have been directed at grey thingy(can't remember his name) and most certainly not at either blu or custy,

just wanted to add...
but only a problem for small businesses if the situation is excessive, like with this restaurant.

But how would you police that in practice ingles2?

When would be 'too often' for a disabled person to visit an establishment.

Businesses (even small ones) are required to make reasonably provision under the DDA.

The reason this doesn't come up very often is because most people with anti-social disabilities stay at home and become isolated. This woman was very brave to continue going.

Perhaps we should just all get out there more so people have no choice but to get used to it?

We've booked our first family holiday in 5 years this year (3 nights away). We had a serious discussion about whether our presence on this holiday would 'ruin' other people's holidays. DH thinks it might do. I decided we should be bolshier, stop apologising for ds1 and get out there and let him live the same life as everyone else. We will do what we can to limit the interference he causes to others, but I think he deserves a 3 night holiday with his family.

But she could have gone to different restaurants, or socialised in other ways. She doesnt have to go to this restaurant every day to have any social life at all (does she?)

I dont think this situation is anything like your hol plans, jimjams -- not unless your sn child will be eating every meal with the same holiday makers not also in your family, or sleeping every night with them, etc.

2Shoes - one of my few posts on this thread was directed directly at Greythingy too - but i said so...so that no-one else would feel implicated. I didn't think anyone was having a go at me.
But they can if they want.

I think Artichokes, way down, was spot on when she spoke of the sensationalisation of this - the so-clled 'spitting' etc.

I am 100% in suport of the DDA and disabled people's right t live thier life free of prejudice and obstruction...but i can see that sometimes there is a bit of a conflct between dfferent people's needs. I run a public performance venue. We have instigated al sorts of approaches to access in different ways- disabled people are ticke buyers too...and bump up the bar sales no end

We used to have one very regular attender, he came to every production without fail.But he had a carrier bag which he always had with him, always stuffed with newspaper, and he used to tar it all into strips, quite methodically, all the way through the show. And talk, in a tourettes-like way.

Sometimes, it din't matter - when a shaow was loud, very funny, quite light. Sometimes it was very disruptive and inreusive.

In the end we spoke to him, and said that he was one of our most oyal customers, we were glad he enjoyed coming...and that because it clearly helped him feel relaxed to tear his paper, there were certain shows when we would like to invite him to come free to the dress rehearsal rather than to other nigts. he was delighted...and it made him feel privy to another layer of theate.

But it was a risk. he could also have been offended. But we did actuallly consul with him and talk openly.

This poor woamn seems to have been treated with rather less respect. It sounds as if she felt 'at home'in the restuarant. Maybe she could have been given (if she found it acceptable) a more secluded table in which she had privacy away from gawping disapproving eyes - for example.

I think mouths 'gawp', but I'm no pedant..

Sometimes

I don't know how you'd police it jimjam.
The problem here was just the lack of communication really. If only he'd talked to Ms Blow, but then not knowing the full facts maybe he did?! Maybe when he talked to her friend he was trying to find a solution? I just can't believe the restaurant owner is all bad. It took so long to get to this point. And disabled or not, it is slightly strange to want to eat every night in the same restaurant. Surely his food wasn't that good
anyway, I feel this is very different to you taking your boy away for 3 nights. I can't really see how that would bother anyone else. As you say, you deserve it and I hope you all have a wonderful time.

Hmmm yes dress rehearsal seems a good idea. I was flicking through the local theatre brochure yesterday and read the bit about access at the end. It mentioned something about a dress rehearsal performance for the panto. I wonder if I should ring up and ask if we could go then? The kids have never been because we never manage to sort out the babysitting for ds1 issue (hard at xmas as my mum has to work extra). The man may well feel more comfortable at the dress rehearsal anyway- I feel more comfortable trying things at special sessions. They're just so few and far between.

flack-perhaps it was the only restaurant that she felt welcome in. There's only one cafe that I take ds1 to for example - if going out is hard you tend to stick to the places you know.

I think if you are a reasonable person, unless you've experienced it you assume everyone else is as reasonable as yourself about disability. I've found that it divides into something like 80% ignore (which is fine), 15% are extra wonderful and imo should have a place reserved in heaven and 5% are utterly vile. Unfortunately the 5% can make it very hard work to go out.

I agree that a secluded table could have been offered as a solution (wouldn't have cost anything).

"I can't really see how that would bother anyone else." Hmmm he does tend to defy imagination He might be fine, at his worse he could make it very difficult for everyone else but we'd probably take him home if he did - one of us stay at home with him and the other one do the holiday with ds2 and ds3.

I do agree there was lack of communication. I suspect the eating in the same place is just a reflection on how difficult it is for her to eat out (and eating out might be a sign of how difficult it is for her to cook). Her friend says she has a carer come twice a day so she doesn't sound in total denial about her condition.

I do think if you start allowing exceptions to the DDA because the disabled person is being annoying then you're on really dodgy ground. However, if everyone is reasonable then there should be a solution that's acceptable for all for every situation.

I remember an elderly guy from my town with Alzheimer's Disease being banned from our local for shouting out and urinating on the seats, not sure what the answer is, people, on the whole were happy to help out this guy and make sure he got home safely etc but in the end the landlady made a decision to not allow him back. He could be quite intimidating but I found it sad that his only social contact was denied him in the end (I can also understand the landladys dilemma). He's dead now - so problem solved

I don't get the bits about big company's solving the problem.
I am a bit tired so I might just being thick. but I would hate to think that one day dd will only be allowed in certain places. would that not be a disabled apartheid?

Haven't had the chance to read all the threads but certainly some of the community cafes in Cardiff were very welcoming of people disabilities (I am thinking especially learning difficulties). Yes, and even little old homeless ladies who smelt of pee.

One Arts Centre I am thinking of would just top up a particular lady (of no fixed abode) with free tea no questions asked.

No big deal, no fuss. I used to notice these actions by the proprietors purely as a casual observer, thought it was very important, lovely to see community spirit.

sorry 'all posts'&'with disabilities'-think I need to go to bed.

so true fio.
very sad to think she can no longer go there(for her)
this kind of thing just hi lights all my fears for dd's future.
people are so lovely to the little girl in the wheelchir, but what will they be like to the adult in the wheelchair?
will people deem her not worth of an outing, just in case she dribbles/fits or makes a noise.
no wonder a lot of adults go into resedential homes. and go out in groups.