No men on women's hospital wards - Good!

[blondeseaside]

Trans women (men) don't want to be on wards with men, but they are quite happy to inflict themselves onto women's wards, no matter how uncomfortable that makes real women. Make it make sense!

Yes, I know.
Do you think the rapist would care? Would rip off the underwear, inspect, and say, "oh, my mistake, this appears to be a neovagina. Apologies, big man, I shan't be raping you this evening?"

honestly, I’m so sick of the “I don’t mind it so
neither should you” non argument.
Study after study after study (google them) shows that women (the actual biological kind) prefer single sex spaces when it comes to hospitals, prisons, domestic abuse shelters, basically anywhere they might feel vulnerable.

Why do you think that women should absorb the risk of having a man on their ward, regardless of how his penis is arranged?

A “trans woman” is at the same risk of being raped by a man as any other man. It’s not an excuse to use the women’s ward as a refuge for men.

BRAVO. You put it better than me.

No as none of them "pass" in real life.
Also male on male violence is not women's problem its a men problem for men to fix without putting women at risk or using them as a shield or validation tool.
More to the point men who identify as women are a no higher risk of male violence than any other group of males regardless of what they claim. Trans identifying males are the safest demographic of males out there.
Trans identifying males have used false claims of rape, murder and assaults for years to cover up the fact that they want access to women in a sate of partial to full undress as a best a validation tool and at worst for their personal sexual gratification (look up gender euphoria if you dare).
Men however they identify belong with other men not women and women are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety as we are fully human and have rights too, we are not some bit part in a man's fantasy/delusion nor are we a feeling in some man's head

Not women's problem.

We have enough to be getting on with.

Why not pop over to Pistonheads or Reddit and discuss with the men on there how to protect eunachs in hospitals?

I don't care if you are ok with it. You don't get to throw all women under the bus.

I remember feeling very uncomfortable on the maternity ward, when husbands would visit their new babies. I had no choice of course, but I didn't want strange men seeing me in that state. Engorged boobs, double sanitary pad on, and being helped to the loo with blood all over my gown.

At no point have I said this.
It was in relation to the argument that trans men are welcome on female wards, particularly as they would be vulnerable to rape on men's wards, outlined at the start of this thread.

If risk of rape (because they have a vagina, even though they may also have a beard) is one reason why trans men should be allowed on women's wards, it follows that if we are worrying about people with vaginas being vulnerable to rape on men's wards, that we wouldn't want post op trans women to face that risk, surely? But apparently we do.

From my pov this risk is unacceptable and it will probably take the rape of one vulnerable trans woman forced onto a male ward to show the inhumanity of it. Whilst I support the idea of single sex wards for those who express a preference, i think a less radical option is needed which doesn't include forcing trans men into women's wards, despite their distress, or trans women onto men's wards, despite this making them vulnerable in some cases. I don't think single rooms is pragmatic so maybe a "queer" ward for those who request it or something?
There has to be a way to provide medical safety, privacy and dignity for ALL, including that not passing middle aged trans woman who looks ridiculous in their wig. They are no less deserving of compassion and dignity than you or me.

The trans men question is a complicated one, and the trans argument has demanded a one-size-fits-all approach.

Transwomen retain the same physical advantage over women and commit the same rate of violent and sexual crimes towards women as other men do. Therefore, permitting transwomen to share spaces that are single sex for the reasons of privacy, dignity and safety of women makes no sense at all.

Transmen who take testosterone actually also exhibit a similar strength advantage over other women as men do, but I have not seen any data to show that they commit the same level of crimes as men or women. So therefore it might the case that a transman might be less likely to attack a woman, but the woman might not be able to defend herself if that happened.

In addition, it is harder for women to tell that a transitioned transman is female, which would also lead to discomfort and distress for women in the single sex space and may put the trans man at risk of violence from men. It also means that a transwoman would just start saying that they are a transman and so the issue can still continue. Transmen also do not pose any additional risk to men in their single sex spaces- unless you count the creepy way some of them act towards gay men.

So therefore I suggest that actually it is better for transmen to use male facitlies for the comfort of women, and the fact they pose a reduced risk to men. Hosptial wards would accommodate this by using a private room if available, but women should know that anyone on a single sex womens ward is female.

Can we also drop the ‘chest feeding’ birthing person’ nonsense etc too!

Yes we do. Because tranwomen are actual, biological men whose risk profile doesn't change with surgery.

Except they are not able to rape?

Some years ago, I spent 3 days on the mixed-sex acute assessment ward of my local hospital and it was absolutely fine. And I didn't get sight of any male genitals, either.

@MyFriendNorman

In terms of how rapists choose their victims

Proximity and access
Vulnerability
Environmental opportunity
Power and control - an act of entitlement, aggression and control

It would be hard not to notice how having men in women's spaces would improve rapists opportunities significantly - ideal environment where women would be more vulnerable, more accessible

In terms of picking a male victim on a hospital ward - as you say the rapist would not know or expect the man to have a neovagina as it would not be visible, so they would be going on visible factors - size and strength, which are variable amongst men who say they are women. If he's going on make up/hair/clothing he might well get an unpleasant surprise.

The NHS literally had CCTV of a man in a woman's ward raping a woman, denied it could have happened, lied to the police and withheld the video evidence for a whole year.

No guidelines or practices were changed to prevent this happening again.

Nobody gives a shit about women being raped but the mere thought of a man being raped and all hell breaks loose.

No. The NHS needs to manage the eunachs they have created.

You raise a good point. Harm has been done to these individuals by the care they have received - affirmative care that has not explored the possible roots of their distress, hormonal changes than cannot be undone and the less common surgical procedures that generally lead to someone who has long term physical problems especially around sexual functioning.

This is such an arrogant viewpoint. I’ve seen so many trans people on my Facebook feed that are extremely happy that they are finally able to live as who they feel they are.

Right because EVERYONE tells the truth on social media.

They cannot pentrate with a penis they dont have.
They can still grope, look, comment, penetrate with other parts if their body abd objects etc.

If the desire was still there, they can offend.

I am aware of this case. Absolutely unacceptable and treated appallingly at the time. However it has been raised in parliament and used in many arguments to change guidelines. So practices have changed.

A post op trans woman is unable to rape.

@MyFriendNorman you’re staggeringly naïve

On a farm, if a fox said that it felt like a chicken, you wouldn't let it sleep in the chicken coop and just hope for the best.

Well as I've already said not one of the women on my ward made any comment at all about the men and we all chatted and were friendly. We even had a male nurse or two. I have friends who have been in hospital, not one of them has ever made any comment about men being on the wards. I suspect we are not quite the delicate flowers women in the UK appear to be however.

@2021x Can you provide data on women taking testosterone having similar strength to men?

I'm sure some women can achieve greater strength than the average woman through either strength training, or taking testosterone and strength training but I'm not sure if this will move them out of the female range for strength.

Will it just push them a bit further down the 'stronger woman' range rather than into 'male strength'.

Also it won't change height variation or the way their physiology is arranged in the upper body that gives men greater upper body strength in terms of ability to punch and hold women down.

I absolutely do not think these women should be put in men's spaces.

@SquirrelGG 'Not one woman made a comment'

Hmmm. Women's socialisation of 'shut up women, we don't want to hear you complain'

Most women know how that goes, especially when complaining about men

Nice bit of UK xenophobia along with sexism there too - thanks, much appreciated from you.