Why are Jewish people facing persecution in the UK?

[Villanousvillans]

I don’t understand why Jewish people are being persecuted in this country. What is wrong with people?

I would say that being arrested and charged with support for a terrorist organisation (Palestine Action) is criminalising peaceful protest against Israel’s war in Palestine. If convicted, the sentence is up to 14yrs in prison I believe? Protesting a war that Israel is actively prolonging is a criticism of Israel’s government’s decisions.

Strangely enough Jewish peace protesters in Israel are not being arrested and not being charged with supporting terrorism.

She was referring to the ME where Islam was spread and imposed on the indigenous population by violent conquest from 650-750 AD. It was a convert or die situation. Many resident Jews and Christians in the ME converted during this conquest as a matter of survival.

Thanks.
Can you expand on how I'm doing harm? Because tbh I'm really concerned if thats the case- its the opposite of what I want to do...

Yes, I was talking about the modern continuous community. I dont think its accurate to say there were 'many' after the 1290 expulsion though and I dont think there is evidence of a continuous community. Then post Iberian expulsion there were Sephardim who came here but again in small numbers and not permanently settled until around the 1640s. Elizabeth I had a Portuguese Jewish doctor.

It’s not libel as there are grounds for the accusation of genocide in Gaza including evidence of intent by top Israeli officials in command of the IDF.

There is a case for genocide being deliberated on at the ICJ as we speak.

It is entirely possible that Israel will be found guilty of genocide as there is a lot of evidence of numerous war crimes against civilians that could have been avoided.

Everyone who has repeated the genocide libel is responsible for creating the culture that has led to an environment of growing hatred and violence and dehumanisation that has led to individuals feeling justified in murdering Jews.

This is ridiculous. Antisemitic criminals don’t need any justification. They are opportunists. You are victim blaming here because it’s not just non Jews that have independently concluded that a genocide could have happened in Gaza. Even a former Israeli president has said it looked like genocide to him under the ethnic cleansing subtype.

Depends how you define ‘many’. We are usually a very small minority. So if 1,000 out of what used to be 3,000 stay to me that is many. To you it might be hardly anyone?

Ok, so define it. How many stayed after 1290? How many came back, how many still had descendants here by the readmission?

Yes, it is really bad right now. We have always been the most likely to be a victim of a religiously motivated hate crime.

It is in my opinion part of the rise of the far right. We Jews are others to them. All immigrants are also others. The discussions about who is really English. That this is ‘a Christian country.’ That you can only have 1 citizenship or you’re not really loyal to Britain (many of us are also Israeli citizens, and even if a Jewish person doesn’t claim that Israeli citizenship, governments and politicians will act as if you do have it because of the right of return).

The abhorrent antisemitic beliefs of personages like Farage were just swept under the carpet by him saying it was ages ago and the dozens of witnesses and victims of his racist bullying who spoke up were just jealous. If the victims and witnesses had been speaking up about historic sex abuse, Farage would have been done but historic antisemitism he just waved his hand and away it went.

So not only is it bad, but it’s seems it’s being minimised and no one is being held accountable for anything short of attempted murder.

“some of your attempts to support us do harm more than help”

Can I ask what this means?

I already told you there wasn’t much official written documentation from the 14th century so why would you expect exact numbers and family trees?

Due to the persecution, most of the Jewish families that stayed on would register as Lombards or Dutch or French merchants. They would attend church for appearances sake but worship as Jews privately on Saturdays. That’s what underground means. FFS every persecuted religion has this phenomenon of going underground, why is it so unbelievable to you that Judaism is different?

Protestants went underground in the reign of Bloody Mary because they were being burned at the stake. Persecution of Catholics led to the gunpowder plot.

Are you really questioning our presence in England post expulsion? It is well known that not everyone fled. We do have our own histories passed down.

It was the same with the Spanish expulsion. The entire Spanish inquisition started to root out false (converts) to Christianity who were actually Jews or Muslims who had gone underground as a result of the reconquista. As it got more powerful it later added witches and heretics/noncatholics to their list of victims.

It’s really interesting how people talk reflexively about dangers of “the far right” but can’t see that the extremists on the left are just as dangerous.
You haven’t mentioned the Green Party - the worst offenders right now.
The Green Party has been hijacked by populist opportunists like Polanski
Some of their candidates include…
Tina Ion - a Newcastle Green candidate who runs an account called “The Real Anne Frank” which refers to “Jewish Nazis” and mocks Jews.
Sabine Maurer - Clapham candidate who posted a man with a placard saying “ramming a synagogue isn’t antisemitism it’s revenge”
Saiqa Ali who posted pictures of Hamas fighters with the headline “Resistance is Freedom”
And thats without mentioning the actions of Polanski and Mothin Ali the deputy leader ….

I dont know why you're getting angry. It was you that brought up numbers. Im not denying there were Jews who stayed after 1290. Im saying my understanding is that it was a tiny number that ebbed and flowed and no suggestion of any sort of continuous Jewish practice for obvious reasons. Personally I think its interesting and not surprising because England was full of different nationalities & religions. As far as I can tell its completely different though to what is going on from the 1640s when the permanent Jewish presence starts. Anyway, I'm certainly not going to argue about it.

I’m not angry. I was more amused that you would ask me for specific numbers:
Ok, so define it. How many stayed after 1290? How many came back, how many still had descendants here by the readmission?

To me, around 1000 Jews underground in 14th c England is many, to you it is tiny. I put numbers on it because the last official record preexpulsion in 1290 was 2-3,000 Jews. I know too there was a London Domus Conversorum- house of conversion which always had an incoming annual trickle of a few dozen British Jews wishing to convert to Christianity from 13th through the 17th century. They would have come from somewhere within London or the rest of country.

Yes, it is different to what happened centuries later in 1640s and of course in the 19th c. when Britain had its first Jewish PM Disraeli (although he had to nominally convert to Anglicism to get the post). It goes without saying that a lot changes in two thousand years.

So what about the antisemitism in the Green Party and the points I referred to earlier?
How come you only want to talk about Farage and not Polanski’s antisemitism?

The Rise in antisemitism is an emotional topic so it’s a bit patronising to call someone “too emotionally invested”

Agree. It's an emotive topic where people tend to feel strongly if they care enough to post on a forum about it.

I would say most people don't care enough about the topic of this thread - Jewish people facing persecution in the UK.

Does @AmberTigerEyes agree that Polanski’s Green Party has allowed rabid antisemitism to go unchecked?

Ok, sorry, you came across as rather angry. I never said 1000 was tiny. In fact it would be around a third of the estimated population, so rather a large number. Ive never seen research to suggest that but it would be great to know. The Domus conversorum in London (there was one in Oxford too) had less than 100 residents at the expulsion - please do send me a link (can do it by pm) to evidence of an annual trickle. My understanding is that over the whole post 1290 period it was less than 100 & they didnt necessarily come from the English population so probably immigrants.

Disraeli didnt nominally convert to get the post by the way. His family fell out with its synagogue and he was baptised as a child and had a pretty complex relationship with his heritage. Also very interesting.

@AmberTigerEyes
Your response to this was deleted before I had a chance to read. Could you respond again?
Did anyone else see what was replied?

I saw it and responded ( but I didn’t report it)
It was a deeply patronising response that implied you were overly emotionally invested in the topic of antisemitism .

Agreed. I know so many Jewish people who feel nobody cares.

Ah OK. Thanks.

Agree, most analysis that Im aware of - Dave Rich, David Hirsh and others have pinpointed the Left as the place where there has been a change that has mainstreamd antisemitism in a new way.

This.

I didn't report it either and a bit surprised it got deleted as worse posts than that one are allowed to stand on the CITME board!

I think I've got desensitised to online insults from hanging around on that board too much. Yes I'm stepping away for the sake of my mental health.

Edited to add - but it definitely wasn't a fair thing to say to @dairydebris