Page 39 | Archie Battersbee thread 5

Dixiechickonhols · 05/08/2022 16:39

The recent judgment isn’t too long and explains. It reads as though there’s no realistic prospects of being able to get him to a hospice to die. This was after evidence from his treating drs. So it’s not a risk he’ll die en route but the highly likely outcome if it was even logistically possible.
It can’t be in a child’s best interests to die in a lift/corridor/ambulance without his mum there when the option to die in a peaceful controlled setting with his existing medical team and family there is available.
Plus delay whilst any hospice transfer was arranged is not in his best interests.

TiddyTidTwo · 05/08/2022 16:40

@iloveeverykindofcat

Quite!

Quia · 05/08/2022 16:48

prh47bridge · 05/08/2022 15:40

It was easy to miss as it didn't get much publicity (if any), but they did get leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal. They got leave to appeal on Sunday and the appeal was on Monday. Having lost that appeal, they were then able to apply for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, which was refused.

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I think you may be referring to a different hearing. They didn't get leave to appeal from Judge Hayden, so they applied to the CA for permission to appeal (hearing on the Thursday and Friday, judgment the following Monday) and that was refused. I think the explanation is probably the one @Cantanka has given.

Justdontgetit000 · 05/08/2022 16:51

Eeksteek · 05/08/2022 13:53

Because, as professionals, the healthcare team are obligated to do what is in the patient’s best interests according to their training and experience. Legally obligated - as in, open to criminal prosecution, de-registration and litigation if they don’t. Morally obligated, because if you let this one go against your better judgement because ‘he’s already gone, what does it matter. It’ll help his mother’ it’s a slippery slope and you personally are making decisions an individual shouldn’t be making, and emotionally obligated because they have to go home and sleep at night and are (generally speaking) pretty awesome humans.

When people who hold life or death in their hands don’t follow the rules, you end up with Harold Shipman et al. Not in one go, of course. But once you’re over the line you’re on the way, aren’t you?

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Thank you so much for this clear and concise reply, it’s helped me to understand a lot more now.

Quia · 05/08/2022 16:51

HappyHamsters · 05/08/2022 15:56

Thenhospice would not keep him on a ventilaor or infusions for days, it would all be turned off on his arrival. Goodness knows what happens if he suffers a cardiac arrest and dies enroute, he would be having ventilation and drugs pumped through a dead body which is awful.

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If his heart were to stop en route, I think they would turn all the machines off as there is a DNAR in place.

Quia · 05/08/2022 16:55

Puzzledandpissedoff · 05/08/2022 16:03

I don't mean shutting down freedom of speech. I mean holding people account for actual slander

I know you do, itsgettingweird, but it couldn't be clearer that some would never accept Hollie being held accountable for anything - because "be kind"

And that's what I meant about some of these attitudes presenting dangers

I guess if they want to "be kind" they could if necessary apply for an injunction to stop her defaming the hospital, its staff and lawyers, but stop short of claiming anything more than a nominal 1p damages. That would still leave them having to take contempt of court action if she disobeyed, but if she deliberately defied a court order I think she'd get less of a sympathy vote.

unicormb · 05/08/2022 16:59

Another weekend with this poor dead child at the centre of his mother's media circus. I feel sick every time she stalls.

Quia · 05/08/2022 17:00

itsgettingweird · 05/08/2022 16:17

That court judgement is very good.

I'm very impressed with the language used.

I'm also slightly amused about why a respiratory consultant who hasn't practiced since 2008 would come to give evidence having read none of the actual medical notes.

Tbf to them though once they heard the evidence from the actual treating clinician they had the good grace to accept they were offering evidence about the minimal risks of moving to hospice based on years old statistics and having no actual knowledge about the condition of the person and how they fit into these statistics.

It's people like this who really shouldn't be getting involved as they should know better.

It's pretty obvious they couldn't find anyone with up to date knowledge who was prepared to say anything other than "Of course he shouldn't be moved, are you mad?"

Quia · 05/08/2022 17:04

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 05/08/2022 16:18

Then hospice would not keep him on a ventilaor or infusions for days, it would all be turned off on his arrival. Goodness knows what happens if he suffers a cardiac arrest and dies enroute, he would be having ventilation and drugs pumped through a dead body which is awful

** If he dies enroute would the Transfer Team be able to do anything , Archie is a DNAR - If he was pronounced Dead en Route would the transfer be aborted and take him back to TRL ? The Hospice would not be able to do anything .

** hypothetical Transfer Team as this is a Not Going To Happen situation.

Same as the Stem Cell Team who have soooo definitely contacted Holly . These Stem Cell Teams are like buses , nil for 4 months then four (un-named) hospitals leap out of the ether to offer to treat Arch

I do wonder why they even bothered to put that one forward when they couldn't even name the hospitals allegedly prepared to take Archie, let alone produce anything by way of confirmation from them. Any lawyer with half a brain would know it was utterly hopeless. I wonder whether there was an element of doing it to keep Ms Dance happy, given that she keeps saying she isn't being allowed to present evidence to the court, which - did she but know it - is effectively a statement that her lawyers aren't doing their jobs.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 05/08/2022 17:05

Now been posted on the dignity page that someone has posted somewhere that Hollies Facebook has been restricted to stop her spreading evidence that his organs are not failing...

BongoJim · 05/08/2022 17:05

I think all this now does is help turn the tide against her. The dreaded DM are running stories about how hard the NHS have worked on this for such little gratitude. I didn’t buy it at first but I do now think we are getting closer and closer to his body just giving up anyway. We’ve all seen cases similar again and again but I don’t think I will ever truly understand the behaviour of the parent in this one. Nothing will ever explain taking things this far, not even grief. This is a whole new level we haven’t even seen before.

Quia · 05/08/2022 17:06

HappyHamsters · 05/08/2022 16:36

I am also confused why Archies brothers girlfriend was the family representative

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She was the only one physically in court, I think. Having said that, it looks as if Ms Dance was watching online and could presumably have given evidence that way if she wanted to.

HappyHamsters · 05/08/2022 17:07

Quia · 05/08/2022 16:51

If his heart were to stop en route, I think they would turn all the machines off as there is a DNAR in place.

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Possibly but I would not want to the itu doctor who turned everything off, removed his ventilator, lines and infusions. He would either arrive with everything still attached but turned off or everything removed which is more dignified but would probably get challenged and then be accused or murder in the ambulance. Filming the transfer for potential evidence would be so undignified for Archie and the team. I am not suggesting that would be done but nothing surprises me in this case any more.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 05/08/2022 17:07

And now someone has shared a photo of his xray from a week ago to prove his organs aren't failing.. not sure what it proves but that's not right!

Quia · 05/08/2022 17:09

unicormb · 05/08/2022 16:59

Another weekend with this poor dead child at the centre of his mother's media circus. I feel sick every time she stalls.

There was some suggestion that the Court of Appeal might be able to sit this afternoon. I hope so. As the judge pointed out, it was found three weeks ago that every day that this continues is another day in which Archie's interests are being seriously harmed.

Quia · 05/08/2022 17:11

Interesting to note that the family are on their third QC. It may well be that the other two simply aren't available, but you have to wonder whether that isn't deliberate on their parts.

HappyHamsters · 05/08/2022 17:11

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 05/08/2022 17:07

And now someone has shared a photo of his xray from a week ago to prove his organs aren't failing.. not sure what it proves but that's not right!

What would an xray prove, where is this posted, its disgraceful the amount of confidential info being given out, who is responsible for this gross invasion of his privacy and dignity. Whoever posted that is a disgrace and clearly doesnt even know anything about what an xray is for.

MooseBeTimeForSnow · 05/08/2022 17:12

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 05/08/2022 17:07

And now someone has shared a photo of his xray from a week ago to prove his organs aren't failing.. not sure what it proves but that's not right!

Surely all that proves is that they’re still there.

itsgettingweird · 05/08/2022 17:15

LarissaFeodorovna · 05/08/2022 16:34

I'm also slightly amused about why a respiratory consultant who hasn't practiced since 2008 would come to give evidence having read none of the actual medical notes.

I know quite a bit about how expert witnesses are instructed, so my assumption would be that no currently practising medical expert with a reputation to protect was prepared to touch this case with a ten foot pole.

Dr R may well be the CLC's 'go-to' expert for these cases, either because he shares their world view, or because the financial rewards on offer outweigh the reputational risk for him.

The judge's wording doesn't directly criticise him, but for those experienced in decoding judgely euphemisms, there's a strong undertone of 'why on earth are you getting involved in this?'

Thanks for this. I had wondered about financial gain above all else.

And for someone that deals daily in reports surrounding children I also read the undertone!

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 05/08/2022 17:16

unicormb · 05/08/2022 16:59

Another weekend with this poor dead child at the centre of his mother's media circus. I feel sick every time she stalls.

I do too. I think it's so unbelievably cruel.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 05/08/2022 17:17

restricted to stop her spreading evidence that his organs are not failing ...

Apparently she'd been asking for 2 weeks for the proof that he was going into organ failure .(And said she has been denied thi information)
I presume there would be blood tests ( as they are taking blood on a very regular basis) that will show the biochemical levels fluctation and I have every confidence that they would discuss this with her
Is she still going by her Nurse Friend whi says Arch isn;t going into organ failure ?
His kidneys , liver, intestines , stomach , pancreas , not to mention his brain and heart . Failure of one or more wll have a massive knock-on effect

itsgettingweird · 05/08/2022 17:18

I am also confused why Archies brothers girlfriend was the family representative

It said she has been consistently and seemed to indicate because the parents were hearing the case from hospital. Which I was pleased to hear they were onsite should they be needed.

I was worried about how much pressure she feels under to do this though on behalf of the family.

Was also very interested to read how the family ask for the hearings to be private but media were allowed.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 05/08/2022 17:19

I guess if they want to "be kind" they could if necessary apply for an injunction to stop her defaming the hospital, its staff and lawyers, but stop short of claiming anything more than a nominal 1p damages. That would still leave them having to take contempt of court action if she disobeyed, but if she deliberately defied a court order I think she'd get less of a sympathy vote

That's actually not a bad idea, Quia, though I'm less sure about her losing the "sympathy vote" if she defied any such court order

Looking at the comments and literacy of the more manic supporters, I wouldn't want to assume they're capable of thinking through complex issues - or even thinking at all for that matter

sammylady37 · 05/08/2022 17:19

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 05/08/2022 17:16

I do too. I think it's so unbelievably cruel.

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‘Cruel’ is an understatement, it is grotesque. There is no dignity in this. My heart aches for that poor child.

Soubriquet · 05/08/2022 17:21

Just when I think they have hit rock bottom, more
dirt is shovelled.

An x-ray to prove no organ failure. Seriously. It doesn’t work like that.