Page 21 | Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

BongoJim · 2022-07-31T21:06:56+00:00

Follow on from previous full thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

Original poster

BongoJim · 02/08/2022 08:21

I think yesterday highlighted that the family representatives either do not understand the law or are just purposely using false arguments to stall. They insisted the court had to act on the request from the UN when it turned out the legislation they were relying on was not even relevant. I mean, you'd think a QC would have checked that the ruling they were relying solely on actually applied. I can see a last ditch attempt today to pull another rabbit out of the hat with some other obscure ruling that doesn't apply. Either that or the family will have finally reached acceptance now and decide not to let this go on any longer themselves. Although I have my doubts. I wonder where this would be if permission for a brain stem test hadn't been refused months ago?

OP posts:

PinkPair · 02/08/2022 08:22

The system has failed her and Archie.

I don't the system has failed them. Sadly there are families faced with similar situations week in week out up and down the country. But the vast majority are able to take in and process the medical information, see the reality of the situation for themselves and let their loves one go.
Very very rarely there are parents who are just unable to process what has happened. For some reason their brain simply won't let them see the obvious.
The courts are there to decide (and as a protection for the person at the centre of it all and the medical staff) in these fortunately rare situations.

I feel for everyone involved today

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 02/08/2022 08:22

itsgettingweird · 02/08/2022 08:03

I watched GMB too. I thought it very telling all she kept saying was she wanted time.

That's probably what's behind all this. Her hateful language towards staff have been about them not giving her time to process this (in her mind). They took her to court so started this (in her mind).

She hasn't processed finding her boy hanging. She hasn't processed that he won't recover. She has researched the shit out of his condition as she sees it as anyone would. (When my ds was diagnosed a few years ago with a neuromuscular degenerative condition I read EVERYTHING).

I thought Kate Garraway very sensitively handled the question (using her own experience of Derek and recognising the differences) when she said she herself at points had considered what she was doing for her and what was best for Derek.

I think Ms Dance is actually at the point she knows he won't wake up, but by saying he's making progress she can fight for that time she knows she needs.

Yeah weeks ago either in the first court hearing or the second it was acknowledged it had been accepted that he wouldn't wake up.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 02/08/2022 08:26

Sad her the latest post is still saying he is healthy weight,Stats are good which wouldn't happen with a brain dead child and something bigger is going on...

I dont think once he does pass she will just fade into the background with all this.

MissMyDad · 02/08/2022 08:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Really inappropriate to post here.

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:27

@nopenotplaying

It's not good to rake over all that here.

The thing which hit me about all that (read it all last week)(it's a long read) is the posts Archie made on SM about his depression. V sad and very sobering.

prh47bridge · 02/08/2022 08:29

BongoJim · 02/08/2022 08:21

I think yesterday highlighted that the family representatives either do not understand the law or are just purposely using false arguments to stall. They insisted the court had to act on the request from the UN when it turned out the legislation they were relying on was not even relevant. I mean, you'd think a QC would have checked that the ruling they were relying solely on actually applied. I can see a last ditch attempt today to pull another rabbit out of the hat with some other obscure ruling that doesn't apply. Either that or the family will have finally reached acceptance now and decide not to let this go on any longer themselves. Although I have my doubts. I wonder where this would be if permission for a brain stem test hadn't been refused months ago?

A QC is required to represent their client to the best of their ability, even if the client ignores their advice. Sometimes that means putting forward arguments you know have little or no chance of succeeding. Occasionally, if you attend court, you will hear a barrister say, "I am instructed to say". That is code for, "I know this is a ridiculous argument that wouldn't fool a 5-year-old, but my client insists".

MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/08/2022 08:31

@Laiste
also your comment is unfair

MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/08/2022 08:32

i hope she has support for after the event

Original poster

BongoJim · 02/08/2022 08:33

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:08

I agree with pp that Hollie shouldn't be the one we are looking towards for a rational decision or any plan for a final decision on what happens next. Of course she is in no position to look at this objectively.

The same way we don't give the relatives of murdered people the final say on what becomes of the perpetrators. It's for the courts (put in place by 'us', as a societal majority) to decide. Decisions made without passion and rage.

I feel the blame for this situation with Archie and Hollie lies within the system. There's something wrong which needs putting right. Somewhere along the chain of events there is a point at which a change is needed to stop this happening again.

I saw her on TV this morning saying more time is needed. Not for her to come to terms with it but for Archie to recover! But he is dead. You cannot bring back the dead with time, prayer or any amount of drugs. It's quite clear this isn't about any rational expectations. She's lost to reality. The system has failed her and Archie.

A brain stem test would have stopped this from happening. His mother refused to allow it. If a medical professional with knowledge and experience had made that decision we would be having a very different conversation now.

OP posts:

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 02/08/2022 08:33

I know she's desperately looking for the tiniest sign that he's trying to communicate "Mum, I'm still here , don't give up on me"

When I watched the Hand Massage video on Sunday , even I was almost convinced I saw his fingers move ( a millimetre)
Of course it's where the massager is putting pressure on the tendons so the fingers retract .
But I bet she's looking at that Frame by Frame and saying his ring finger twitched , he's trying to tell me

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:35

I understand what you are saying @PinkPair, but the fact that this circus is going on and we are here to be talking about it is proof positive that something has gone wrong or is something is missing from the process/system, what ever you want to call it.

A lesson must be learned from this.

We have a desperate and disillusioned mother raving on TV, umpteen court cases and abused NHS staff. There must have been a point at which something could have been done differently. Or done differently in the future. Medically, legally, i don't know.

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:39

A brain stem test would have stopped this from happening. His mother refused to allow it. If a medical professional with knowledge and experience had made that decision we would be having a very different conversation now.

Yep that's one point. Also the bit about not being able to perform certain tests because he was 'too dead'. As discussed up thread. Sorry, i'm not able to use the proper terminology.

I'm saying there isn't a person to blame. It the system. We need to make sure this can't happen again. Changes need to be made. Maybe a few of them!

AskItaliano · 02/08/2022 08:41

Hollie wants Archie to die as ‘natural’ a death as possible.

Okay. Then remove the life sustaining treatment and it will happen. There’s nothing natural about what they’re doing to Archie right now. It’s the opposite of natural. She really will just say anything she can in any moment depending on what she’s trying to achieve. If she had it her way she’d keep him on the machines indefinitely. This is all so grotesque.

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:43

MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/08/2022 08:31

@Laiste
also your comment is unfair

Which comment?

MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/08/2022 08:43

the facebook army page seems to be full of hearts and love, which is good to read rather than mad threats

BrownTableMat · 02/08/2022 08:44

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:39

A brain stem test would have stopped this from happening. His mother refused to allow it. If a medical professional with knowledge and experience had made that decision we would be having a very different conversation now.

Yep that's one point. Also the bit about not being able to perform certain tests because he was 'too dead'. As discussed up thread. Sorry, i'm not able to use the proper terminology.

I'm saying there isn't a person to blame. It the system. We need to make sure this can't happen again. Changes need to be made. Maybe a few of them!

What do you think ‘the system’ should have done differently that would have enabled a clearly irrational mother who is being ‘advised’ by dangerous lunatics, to see sense? Why do you think ‘the system’ has failed in this case, when it clearly succeeds in the 99%+ of similarly tragic cases where the parents decide to follow medical advice and do the best for their child?

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:46

Because it's failed in 1%.

Original poster

BongoJim · 02/08/2022 08:46

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:39

A brain stem test would have stopped this from happening. His mother refused to allow it. If a medical professional with knowledge and experience had made that decision we would be having a very different conversation now.

Yep that's one point. Also the bit about not being able to perform certain tests because he was 'too dead'. As discussed up thread. Sorry, i'm not able to use the proper terminology.

I'm saying there isn't a person to blame. It the system. We need to make sure this can't happen again. Changes need to be made. Maybe a few of them!

I agree. I'm not sure people with no medical knowledge or experience so closely related are the best person to be deciding if a brain stem test is necessary but that's only one element that perhaps needs to change, and whichever way you look at it a court would still have been involved in that decision.

OP posts:

PinkPair · 02/08/2022 08:47

She has such a distrust of the doctors because she doesn't want to believe what they are saying/showing her.
She would never had believed or accepted the results of the brain stem tests either

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:48

In your own words ''a clearly irrational mother who is being ‘advised’ by dangerous lunatics'' has been able to go through court after court while a child lays rotting.

Are you saying you are happy to change nothing about the process by which we've arrived here?

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:53

''I'm not sure people with no medical knowledge or experience so closely related are the best person to be deciding if a brain stem test is necessary but that's only one element that perhaps needs to change''

Agreed. And i'm in no position to suggest anything actually helpful myself. I know bugger all!

I just really hope that in a year/2 years/2 years this doesn't repeat itself again becasue no one looked carefully at how it came to be, and how it can be prevented.

Laiste · 02/08/2022 08:54

3 years
🙄

SunflowerGardens · 02/08/2022 08:54

MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/08/2022 08:43

the facebook army page seems to be full of hearts and love, which is good to read rather than mad threats

Yeah but it's so unhelpful to the already delusional mother, all this 'please please open your eyes Archie come on beautiful boy just breathe I've been crying all night thinking about you' I mean does Hollie need to be reading all this shite. He's not going to breathe, what the group should be encouraging is support and acceptance and a peaceful end for the dear boy.

thoroughlypipinghotbeforeserving · 02/08/2022 08:55

I don't think the system has failed Archie and Hollie it's failed the hospital . Repeated court hearings and appeals all with the exact same outcome. Ridiculous IMO.