Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

[BongoJim]

Follow on from previous full thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

does anyone know what happens tomorrow then does the supreme court just say yes or no or is it another hearing

I’d bet the people she is ‘against’ are not the people who are there all the time. In my experience, the nurses and physios and HCAs who have lots of contact with the patients have good relationships with relatives as they can clearly seen to be helping. It’s the doctors and administrators who get it in the neck. Partly because you know, deep down, that you can’t afford to put direct caregivers backs up but you’re stressed and angry and helpless and need to let it out. I had one amazing manager who actual said that part of her job was to draw out the anger and preserve our relationships with patients and relatives so we could treat them more effectively.

Also, things layman perceive as good signs are sometimes very bad signs indeed. Especially in neurology.

Completely agree. I cannot find it in me to judge her. She may go on to regret some of the decisions she has made and actions taken, or she may take comfort from the fact that in her eyes and mind, she did everything she could. I hope she doesn’t regret what she’s done because, quite frankly, losing her son in such tragic circumstances is going to be hard enough to live with.

I’m so incredibly sorry this is making people question their end of life care decisions for relatives. Although cases like this are a good thing for forcing us to discuss the unthinkable, they also prompt memories for people who would perhaps rather not be reminded of their journey.

Please know that every medical professional I have every worked with with wants their patients to get well and go home. If they are saying they’ve done all they can, I’m certain they will have done all they can. Putting your relative’s peace before your own pain is truly an honourable thing, and absolutely shows your love and respect. ‘Fighting’ like this might feel like advocating to some, but I don’t think it ever really achieves anything but prolonging everyone’s pain. I imagine in time, the futility of this action will become apparent. I was wondering earlier whether the courts ever find in favour of the relatives in these types of cases. I should think it’s very rare, if it ever happens at all. While not infallible, medical teams are generally good people and ICU teams are so large, with so many safeguards and back ups these days, it’s really rare to have an outlier in terms of competence, compassion or professionalism go unnoticed.

I can't judge her either.

She is facing an avalanche worse than any of us can imagine in our most horrific nightmares.

I doubt the day she found him has even hit her yet, the description of her story running into the street for help when she couldn't lift him made me tear up, it's unbearable to think about being in her situation on the day.

It's been a roller coaster since between court cases and the Christian group preying on her.

She's trapped.

Perhaps not on this specific issue as I'd agree she's trapped but there are without doubt other areas of the wider picture which do feel difficult not to judge. We can't discuss that here for obvious reasons but once this is all over I foresee more coming to light.

Emerald, I think as unfortunately will be the case here, when you conduct yourself in a certain way so publicly it remains on the internet forever.

It certainly does.

Another issue with Hollie having what seems like never-ending amounts of time, so she feels “everything was done” is that he will look awful now.

True, he will look peaceful but the pic of him, emaciated, in a nappy was a while ago and, to use Hollie’s words, things will have “progressed”. His tone will have changed, on the images she has posted (without his whole body shown), his limbs look genuinely skeletal.

This was referenced to in the court case; Archie is not the same boy. “Doing everything” will come at an obvious physical cost to Archie’s body. True, he’s beyond awareness but there will be a cost to his family of seeing him like that.

There’s a cost to the nursing staff as well, with it noted in the High Court case that the nurses were finding looking after Archie’s body ethically confronting/distressing.

I find it hard to get my head around how hollie can bare to see archie decaying and withering away.

I don’t think she can and I think this is why she finds any excuse she can to be away from him. She can’t cope with seeing her son decaying away but at the same time nor can she stop fighting for him.

All these court appearances and TV interviews are a way for her to escape the reality that is lying before her in that hospital bed. I imagine that avoiding Archie helps her to avoid the truth.

the JK interview was ok

@Perplexed0522 I think there's probably something in that. It's easier to avoid the hard, sad, truth when it's not right in front of you.

I think there is a difference between stopping living and dying.

I don't suppose there can be anything worse than being told what time your child will die. Unimaginable. I wonder if they changed it so that parents can make the decision of when it's time. I'm sure she would come to the right decision herself once she has sat with him for days/weeks and saw for herself there is no improvement. Rather than being told its out of her hands, I would think then she would be more accepting of the situation perhaps.

@CaroleFuckingBaskin I think you may be right. As unpalatable as it may be however, there are cost implications of that, and I don't just mean financial. How many other children have been seriously injured, through accidents or illness during the time he's been in that bed with no prospect of recovery? It shouldn't form part of Hollie's decision making, quite rightly her concern is only for her child, but it's something the medics will be acutely aware of. If all patients families in this heartbreaking scenario refused to stop futile treatment then very quickly there'd be far more children losing their lives as beds would not be available for them when with the treatment they might have had a more positive outlook than poor Archie.

Hollie is on GMB now, she does looks defeated. She says she has been in fight or flight ever since & hasn’t processed the circumstances in which she found him.

@MissMyDad yes I totally agree. Other children need that bed/expertise who have a chance. I was just trying to place myself in her shoes. I'm sure none of it has had time to be processed properly. The shock of what happened, then to be told the life support needs to be switched off. No doubt she has had thousands of quack messages about miracles etc and is not thinking clearly. I believe once it has happened and she has had time to grieve properly, she will come yo accept that nothing was going to bring him back, let alone have a quality of life.

Very sad. I did read some of the other less savoury elements to the mother, but have put them to one side, and looking at it as if it was one of my children.

I watched GMB too. I thought it very telling all she kept saying was she wanted time.

That's probably what's behind all this. Her hateful language towards staff have been about them not giving her time to process this (in her mind). They took her to court so started this (in her mind).

She hasn't processed finding her boy hanging. She hasn't processed that he won't recover. She has researched the shit out of his condition as she sees it as anyone would. (When my ds was diagnosed a few years ago with a neuromuscular degenerative condition I read EVERYTHING).

I thought Kate Garraway very sensitively handled the question (using her own experience of Derek and recognising the differences) when she said she herself at points had considered what she was doing for her and what was best for Derek.

I think Ms Dance is actually at the point she knows he won't wake up, but by saying he's making progress she can fight for that time she knows she needs.

I agree with pp that Hollie shouldn't be the one we are looking towards for a rational decision or any plan for a final decision on what happens next. Of course she is in no position to look at this objectively.

The same way we don't give the relatives of murdered people the final say on what becomes of the perpetrators. It's for the courts (put in place by 'us', as a societal majority) to decide. Decisions made without passion and rage.

I feel the blame for this situation with Archie and Hollie lies within the system. There's something wrong which needs putting right. Somewhere along the chain of events there is a point at which a change is needed to stop this happening again.

I saw her on TV this morning saying more time is needed. Not for her to come to terms with it but for Archie to recover! But he is dead. You cannot bring back the dead with time, prayer or any amount of drugs. It's quite clear this isn't about any rational expectations. She's lost to reality. The system has failed her and Archie.

x posted with CaroleFuckingBaskin and itsgettingweird

completely agree.

Hollie is in denial, although she did say this appeal is the end & if it fails, she wants Archie moving. She says she doesn’t want his last moments in that hospital as it isn’t private enough. Another delay tactic.

It's anything a poor, tired, desperate, mad with grief mind can find to grasp at.

This is her whole world. Thinking of how to bring Archie back. Every minute of every hour.

It's so sad.

When i saw her this morning talking about time for her child to recover, i just felt this overwhelming realisation that she's just totally lost. Not scheming or cunning or plotting for money. Just lost and alone. Alone because she's surrounded by people who aren't good for her.