Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

[BongoJim]

Follow on from previous full thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

@loislovesstewie @Laiste do you have links to the "Vent farms" stuff?

There are lots of links online, these seem to be subacute units set up in American carehomes where longterm patients are kept on ventilators for many many years,

I just Googled 'vent farm' and an article came up from the Los Angeles Times.
This is it.

www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-01/sixty-six-garage-unconscious-and-anonymous-for-17-years

@Eeksteek If I've read your post correctly then I agree. Abortion next because it might be equally impossible to say with the same level of certainty that an embryo or foetus is unviable as with brain stem death here. I'd expect organ donation would be last as too many men would see their wants and lives impacted.

Am nonplussed by the attempt to make catastrophic death but ventilated a disability and this presumably being added to the playbook now which presumably would make such medical patients by default disabled add to the spiral of Court of Appeal, Supreme Court, ECHR (though don't know if they went there this time or were keeping this in their back pocket) and UN.

I understand judges become familiar with a range of technical subjects though still would prefer my ITU care by the relevant medical and nursing specialists rather than a person in a wig.

Those vent farms are hideous. Who the fuck wants to live like that? And what kind of person puts a loved one through that kind of life?

Thanks guys!

Man! Imagine if you DID wake up after 20 years. And your husband had left you and was with someone else. Your kids/parents had never been able to move on or you never had a chance to have any kids. You can't eat/speak.

Oh no, I'd rather let nature take its course.

If I've read your post correctly then I agree. Abortion next because it might be equally impossible to say with the same level of certainty that an embryo or foetus is unviable as with brain stem death here. I'd expect organ donation would be last as too many men would see their wants and lives impacted. in order for organ donation to take place though a person has to be brain dead. And if law decrees that someone who is brain dead is disabled and not dead so cannot have life support removed then organ donation would go.

In fact I suspect organ donation would go before abortion.

Re the legal language around death, the definition was changed in the 1960's when organ transplantation was being pioneered. Before heart transplants could take place, the definition was changed to brain stem death, rather than being when someone's heart stopped beating.

There was a really interesting documentary re Christian Barnard a few years ago that discussed it.

Actually I’d be quite happy to be euthanised in that situation. Just in case nature took a bit too long to act.

Latest bbc news says a decision was due at 3.30pm

Exactly. It's frowned upon to make anything but positive comments about someone who's grieving or going through a traumatic situation. But she's very willingly brought all of this into the public sphere and conducted herself appallingly, there are so many issues here that require scrutiny and discussion. Legal avenues of appeal are crucial in a democracy and a civilised country but how things have managed to get this far needs to be analysed so this cannot happen to another person, child or adult.

California, and vent farms are really interesting. There people in these units aren't brain dead - California is accurate quote stringent in turning off live support where the person is brain stem dead. This is why Jahi had to be moved to another state, as she wouldn't have been kept alive in California.

The people in the 'farms' have extremely damaged brains, but are alive. Some are minimally conscious, or locked in etc, but they will have all passed brain death tests, or wouldn't be kept alive.

Its a very different situation from Archie. In Archie's situation, I would definitely not want life support to continue, but if he genuinely had some awareness, smiled, sometimes responded to his name, objects etc, then it would be a lot trickier a situation.

What a sad situation all round.

I read this book last year and it made me think about many of the issues which have occurred around Archie. And what it means for a member of the family to be 'caught between life and death', due to our medical advances (though as I understand it from the thread Archie is technically dead according to the specialists). What it means to give a last kindness and let someone go where there is no chance at life in the future. It's heartbreaking all round and I do feel for his mum. None of us know how we'd respond in that situation.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jun/20/brother-coma-wake-sister-cathy-rentzenbrink-book

The book is called the Last Act of Love. It's not an easy read but perhaps a necessary one.

Is it possible that lawyers here are in touch with UN lawyers for a definitive answer so that this can be stopped now? Hence why the delay in a ruling.

It's all being discussed now..apparently the argument been put across about him being stable enough he could wait longer but been told thats not true..

Someone on the dignity group been posting updates.

Looks like the hospital can go ahead and withdraw care.

That poor boy I really hope he may be at peace now somehow 🙏

I wonder if, with our low child mortality (which is a very good thing) we have become removed from children dying. What used to be common place is now rare, most people don’t know a child that has died.

That and the line ‘no parent should go through this’, again ideally no, but it does happen. I think it strengthens the denial that this is actually happening.

I have sympathy for all apart from the CLC, Hollie is being played.

@KisstheTeapot14 thanks for the link, so very sad, but the family made the right decision for Matty.

Gosh the live Facebook thread is carnage people keep interjecting with their own interpretations. So hard to follow what's going on.