Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

[BongoJim]

Follow on from previous full thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

I’m 100% on the side of the medical experts and the courts, but that letter laying out the details must have been heartbreaking to read for his parents.

^This^

I think it’s fair to say, with Archie’s life hanging in the balance, that it’s insensitive to discuss it now. When the inquest is on that’s different, because that’s about establishing the facts that lead to his death.

Ultimately, this is, and should be, only about Archie. His life, his comfort, his dignity. In short, his best interests (although it has unavoidable future implications for children in similar circumstances) All of the problems and the conflicts are coming from people who are putting themselves, their interests, their feelings, their judgements and their future agendas above Archie’s best interests today. Hollie, understandably and perhaps forgivably, the CLC obviously not so. I think the courts have done an excellent job of keeping everything about Archie and his best interests, and the process is right, proper and sometimes necessary. None of the rest of it matters. Not whether he’s brain-dead and/or heart alive, what his mother’s been through since his accident or before, not what he’s been through before. All that is relevant now is whether or not it is in Archie’s best interest to continue the intervention he’s currently receiving. It is appropriate I think for people to consider the implications of that for future laws and cases like this, but not anyone’s personal history. That’s a matter for the inquest or private speculation.

JK was almost decent on Jeremy Kyle Investigates though......

I cannot see him doing the Alison Hammond / Holly Willoghby You're a great Mum Simper Simper shite though

That depends though. Barts trust already have legal authority to end Archie’s treatment. f the court rules against maintaining treatment then Bart’s can remove treatment immediately.

They’ve already been to the Supreme Court, so that avenue is no longer open to them.

If the hospital has any sense they’ll remove the life support the instant the ruling is granted to prevent any more of this.

Indeed heartbreaking but it's clearly a CYA (cover your ass) letter, ensuring anything which has been said, or tried to be said or may not have been heard due to grief/refusal to listen is transmitted.

Joshua Roxenburg's tweets are interesting. Thank you to pp who pointed them out. They aren't even debating the merits of continuing treatment or not but whether to wait for the UN?

And even if this court says no to it going to the UN, can they appeal that decision? It's never ending.

Who the flibjib funds CLC?

It’s 14.00, it’s time for little Archee according to the papers. Sending love to his family and thinking of this beautiful boy xx

@MayThe4th They haven't yet taken the question over whether or not this should be referred to the UN to the Supreme Court?

Who the flibjib funds CLC? presumably some church which encourages their members to tithe and give 10% of their salary to the church…

I’d imagine they’re tied to a specific church.

Just seen this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62373605
HD saying she would like 6 months from accident date and comments about him "progressing"

They haven't yet taken the question over whether or not this should be referred to the UN to the Supreme Court? but this isn’t about whether treatment should be withdrawn. If the court says that this will not go to the UN the hospital can withdraw the treatment. The legal stay was only in place until 1 PM, so they shouldn’t be given a chance to go anywhere else at this stage.

The poor lad hasn't made any progress towards life. The situation is appalling.

But there has been no progress. He just is.

Without any medical help, he will pass quickly. With it, she is just waiting for a heart attack.

It won’t be peaceful. It will be frantic and stressful

Exactly this. And I do feel that a little more effort could have put into the letter. In such difficult times it is not unreasonable for the family to expect a letter that actually gets the dates correct, and spells "coroner" correctly. This really comes across as having been dashed off in a hurry, with no thought to the impact the words, and the utter carelessness displayed in the lack of attention to detail, would make the family feel.

I, too, am with the medical experts and the courts, but my heart absolutely goes out to the family at this terrible time, and I feel that Barts Health could have been a whole lot more compassionate. They are not helping themselves, as I can see how those opposing the withdrawal of medical care could quite easily say that sufficient care and attention to detail has not been displayed. If Barts can't even write an accurate letter, how can the family believe that the far more serious decisions have been considered accurately and proportionately?

I think it’s fair to say, with Archie’s life hanging in the balance, that it’s insensitive to discuss it now

his life isn’t “hanging in the balance”.

he’s dead, and has been for months. Modern technology is pumping air into his body, and drugs to act where his body can’t.

the minute any one of those outside influences is stopped so will any residual bodily function.

Although the clumsy wording of the letter is unhelpful, I have a feeling it wouldn't have made much difference if it were word perfect. I think his mother still wouldn't have accepted it and still would have appealed.

Well the CLC have quite the CV:

Here

I've just read an article about a 'vent farm' in California. It made grim reading; the article was about a young man who has lain in a bed for 16 years in a state of minimal consciousness. I can't think anyone would want to be left like that , hooked up to tubes, unaware of the passing of time, unable to communicate, staring at a television. I know Archie has no functioning brain stem, but if this is really want they want, then I do truly despair. We wouldn't keep an animal like that,

@BongoJim - Probably. But nonetheless, it is very poor practice, and doesn't leave the family feeling cared for or supported. I was mortified when I read it, and I have no links to the family at all. I think that of they've got these straightforward, easily checked and verified things wrong, what else are they likely to have messed up? I say this from the perspective of having faith that the decision by the HCPs and the courts is the correct one.

His family must be dreading the coroner's report, for all the reasons that have been discussed here, and for Bart's to make a spelling error with that particular word, with all the emotive connotations, is in particularly poor taste.

I don’t think that’s it. The courts are totally and rightly focused on keeping this about Archie’s best interests. Firstly because it’s the right thing to do, and secondly to prevent consequences like someone being ‘legally dead’ but medically alive, organ donation issues from someone still alive in some definitions but not others, or the CLC getting a foot in the door precedent with their agenda about a beating heart (which is plainly going be a misogynistic anti abortion cause)

Sorry to hear about your nan.

Mine died similar way. She had copd and heart failure. He king collapsed and they started treatment and antibiotics. They said little they could do but she picked up.

Then lung collapsed again. They talked to my mum and her siblings and it was agreed treating her was futile as you were just prolonging the inevitable.

Antibiotics were stopped and they stayed with her in a side room for 2 days before she passed peacefully.

When my mum died of cancer in a hospice earlier in the year we asked they have her sedation and painkillers to make it pain free and peaceful.

Sometimes treatment is for the benefit of the living and not the one who is dying.

Surely this isn't correct, is it?

Oh good lord that report about the 'Vent Farm' in California 😞

When medicine has saved you but there will be no further progress.

Years and years of, at best, nothing. At worst feeling all the tubes and insertions all day everyday keeping you ticking over.

What have we done?

I apologise if I was unclear. I did not mean there is any question of recovery or even maintenance of life without extensive support. I appreciate his life is being artificially prolonged. Perhaps I should have said ‘with his life support treatment hanging in the balance’. I still think it’s insensitive to being his past into it. What matters is his best interests now, and why this should not be subverted by anyone for their own agenda. Anyone.

Agree but if she won't listen then they need to communicate somehow.

I can imagine when they try and talk to her she just keeps talking over them with accusations based on what she's posted online and said in the media.