Ukraine cannot win.

[Benmac]

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders.
However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine.
Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that
So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out?
Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.
The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency.
EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in.
In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

There could be Villanelle just waiting for her cue ☠️

@BoredZelda

I heard some expert or other saying Putin has 190k troops. That’s enough to take Ukraine with a fair wind behind him, but it is nowhere near enough to occupy it for any amount of time.

190k is nothing if they have low morale, poorly equipped and fed. And the knowledge that their family back in Russia are starving due to sanctions imposed, and constant guerrilla warfare reducing their numbers ..

I didn't know that @valerianaofficiana. Off to google Putin's reaction.

Putin said there would be consequences for Finland and Sweden. It was an ambiguous threat like the ones he made to us.
He did not say he would 'go after' them in any sense like he has Ukraine. I don't believe he's got a check list of countries he's planning on invading. It's always been about Ukraine.

@cherrysthename

Putin said there would be consequences for Finland and Sweden. It was an ambiguous threat like the ones he made to us. He did not say he would 'go after' them in any sense like he has Ukraine. I don't believe he's got a check list of countries he's planning on invading. It's always been about Ukraine.

Even if that's true, Ukraine cannot simply allow him to take their country. It's not his to take.

@Benmac

The west is encouraging them supplying arms

What's wrong with people supplying them arms to protect their country? If you would happily welcome someone in to take over your country, that's on you. A lot of people would fight and that's what they are doing.

Its always been about Ukraine.

No, it's always been about whatever Putin wants.

190k is nothing if they have low morale, poorly equipped and fed. And the knowledge that their family back in Russia are starving due to sanctions imposed, and constant guerrilla warfare reducing their numbers

190k? A quick Google suggests that Russia had a million military personnel and 2 million reservists.

All I'm saying is that surely we're not going to all agree to a catastrophic end to the world, for the sake of one country? I hope Ukraine come out on top, I really do. But it seems hopeless either way. But if we keep on poking at Putin, then we will all suffer for it.

@cherrysthename

All I'm saying is that surely we're not going to all agree to a catastrophic end to the world, for the sake of one country? I hope Ukraine come out on top, I really do. But it seems hopeless either way. But if we keep on poking at Putin, then we will all suffer for it.

Sadly I think Ukraine needs to loose in order to save us from ww3. If Ukraine wins Putin will invade again, or invade somewhere else. If Ukraine loose but the fighting and sanctions have cost Russia a considerable amount of money, then Putin might take his victory and place in the history books and retire (die) quietly.

For this we need Ukraine to fight hard and drag this out long enough for the sanctions to really bite, and this is why the West is providing weapons.

I would agree with that, @Cyw2018
God, it's so terrible. I'm hoping (against hope, I know) for some kind of agreement or ceasefire where Russia can spin it in their favour so Putin can think he's saving face.

I don’t think the Ukrainians will necessarily lose.
The Russians are performing poorly; no air superiority yet, poor logistics, failing communication/PR campaign back home and they’re faced with urban war fare and battling street to street in a country which vehemently doesn’t want to be invaded. Putin thought he’d take much of the Ukraine military in the countryside. But they’ve doubled down on their cities, where the attackers are so much more vulnerable.
It’s not as easy as you think for Putin to take Ukraine.

It almost seems that the'Generals' didn't brief Putin for fear of being made into dog food? As in nobody disagrees with Papa Putin when said PP has decidedthat based on his historical knowledge and his learnings from obscure Russian philosophers, Ukraine is gagging for a friendly take-over by Mother Russia 🙄

I do think it’s a dangerous situation to allow Putin to do whatever he wants as soon as he hints at nukes being ready. It does set a dangerous precedent

@cherrysthename

All I'm saying is that surely we're not going to all agree to a catastrophic end to the world, for the sake of one country? I hope Ukraine come out on top, I really do. But it seems hopeless either way. But if we keep on poking at Putin, then we will all suffer for it.

And if it was your country being invaded, your children being killed, would you be so happy for other countries to say this? If Putin wants a catastrophic end to this, he will go for one no matter what. There is no appeasing a dictator. There is no guarantee he will stop at Ukraine.

No I wouldn't be happy, @Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious but that's the way it is. It's terrible. If the outcome is us all dying, which is what WW3 would mean, it's hard to see it any other way. I've seen Ukrainians say they will die for their country, but I wasn't raised with that level of patriotism. I don't want to die for mine.

I'm happy to be told I'm looking at it the wrong way, @ChiefInspectorParker but even with the knowledge that Russian soldiers had already been starving in the lead up to the invasion, let alone how dire it must be now, the sheer numbers don't look positive. It seems they will just keep coming. Of course, I hope I'm wrong!

@Joinedforthis22

Ukrainians would rather die than let Putin have their country.

This! They think it's worth dying for, it might not be a mindset that we can understand but then are sovereignty and culture are not being threatened. Think of Churchill's "we will fight them on the beaches etc. Etc. We will never surrender"

Not quite. Eastern Ukraine's Donbas region has a large pro-Russian separatist influence. That issue and the civil war that's been going on in Ukraine for years hasn't gone away. We've been slouching towards full-scale war in Ukraine for 8 years.

The Donbas conflict is what makes me believe that Putin doesn't/didn't necessarily have a wider agenda. But now things haven't gone his way, and with the perceived (to him) prodding of from NATO countries and non- NATO countries alike, there is real potential he will kick off.

Prodding from*

Interesting to watch this.

Wining the war is one thing, keeping control of ground gained is another 😳

Cities may be flattened but it will end up as street to street or room to room fighting. That is brutal

Shades of Leningrad or Stalingrad in WW2 😔

A funnier version

@cherrysthename what would you suggest should be done when Putin starts hankering after geographical location where most Russian investments are concentrated, Chelsea/Kensington? Going after the ownership of these areas and threat you nuclear escalation unless UK agrees that Zone 1 really belongs to Russia?
🙄