Ukraine cannot win.

[Benmac]

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders.
However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine.
Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that
So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out?
Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.
The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency.
EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in.
In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

@Lubeyboobyalt

Why do you think Russia is bankrupt? From what I can find googling they faired the last 2 years of Covid better financially than the West, with about 5 X less money spent on it and a far smaller hit on their GDP. Hopefully the sanctions will cripple them, but I think we will have to wait a little while, and toughen sanctions further, to see the effects.

I am a bit concerned that Russia will take Ukraine and these sanctions and alienating Russia will carry on for a few weeks and then it will slowly become buisness as usual as soon as countries realise they need cheaper oil/gas

@thebellagio

Can I ask something stupid? My understanding is that Putin has invaded Ukraine because he was scared they wanted to join Nato (and ironically proved their point of why they wanted to join it).

Can they not just suggest a treaty that agrees they won't consider joining Nato until 2100 (in 78 years time) - or some other time frame, but that Russia needs to pull away immediately and leave them the fuck alone?

Putin didn't want Ukraine to join NATO because he was always going to do this. He was always going to invade eventually. He wants to rebuild the USSR and it will of been his plan for a long time. My understanding is he didn't want them to join NATO and make that plan significantly more difficult, if not impossible. Promising to not join NATO now won't achieve much, he's already invaded and his plan is in motion. He wanted to keep them sitting ducks until he struck. And now he has

@TimeToMakeACupofTea

Why should Putin get a nice easy ride when taking over someone else’s country? Fuck him. I’m filled with admiration for the Ukrainian people and their bravery, and for their President.

Me too. The Ukrainians are absolute badasses.

I heard an ex-UK army general talking earlier - his take on it was really interesting:
(segment starts at 27minutes, 45secs) www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0014x0y

@bluepeacock

Why the fuck should the Ukraine and the Ukrainian people just roll over and say sure Vlad can have my country, no worries, I'll get a hammer and sickle tat too, starting speaking Russian, hell I'll start wanking to pictures of Vlad, start calling him daddy Vlad and tickle his balls. No.

😂 😂 😂

On a serious note, how do we help the Ukrainians? Who do we send money to?
I would gladly take in some Ukrainian refugees. I really want to help in some way, what is the best way to do this?

Here are some sources of legit organisations to donate to:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60562260
UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said donating money through the Ukrainian Embassy in the UK was one way of helping. The embassy has set up a special fund called With Ukraine for people to send funds via PayPal or bank transfers.

kyivindependent.com/national/heres-how-to-support-ukrainian-military/

euromaidanpress.com/2022/02/27/verified-ways-to-help-the-ukrainian-army/

metro.co.uk/2022/02/24/ukraine-invasion-all-the-ways-you-can-help-those-affected-16165628/

If the West stands by and watches Putin invade and does not offer arms too aid Ukraine, Putin will just pick off countries one at a time. Moldova could be the next. Finland is not far away. And in Ukraine they have 4 sites of nuclear weapons. If a strike hits one of them the fall out will be all of Europe.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I don't understand the bit where the Russian soldiers were told that the Ukranian people would welcome them.

Who would welcome an invasion? Did they know it was an invasion or did they think they were there for some other reason?

Here's the page for the With Ukraine fund set up by the Ukranian embassy.

I want to say something controversial here.

It is being widely reported on Al Jazeerah and RT (and one British news outlet) that the Russian troops have been ordering the evacuation of Ukrainian civilians before a strike so it appeara that they are not targeting civilians at all.

Putin claims not to actually want control of Ukraine but for Ukraine to give an assurance that they will be a neutral nation and not join NATO.
If they join NATO, my understanding is that they will have nuclear weapons from America, Russia will be effectively surrounded by American weapons..

It sounds to me like this is maybe not so much trying to re gain land (Ukraine) but maybe more trying to protect the land that is already there (Russia)

caringcarer would you offer a room to any refugee though, what about refugees from other parts of the world or is it just Ukrainian refugees?

@BertieBotts

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I don't understand the bit where the Russian soldiers were told that the Ukranian people would welcome them.

Who would welcome an invasion? Did they know it was an invasion or did they think they were there for some other reason?

The Russian army were told they were doing training exercises in Ukraine. They were not aware at the time that they were invading to take the country.

Apparently Putin and his family are hiding away in a huge, extremely comfortable and well equipped nuclear bunker in the Siberian mountains.

Zelenskyy is on the frontline with his people.

And that just sums it up really doesn't it.

www.withukraine.org/

Sorry, here's the fund set up by the Ukranian embassy

zeldaonadreamcloud

Thanks 😊

@Benmac

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders. However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine. Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out? Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place. They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees. The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency. EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in. In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

They can have the land???????

Speaking as an Irish person who's country was and still is invaded and occupied .... No they can't just have the land. And we actually want ours back

@WetRainbowRoses

I want to say something controversial here.

It is being widely reported on Al Jazeerah and RT (and one British news outlet) that the Russian troops have been ordering the evacuation of Ukrainian civilians before a strike so it appeara that they are not targeting civilians at all.

Putin claims not to actually want control of Ukraine but for Ukraine to give an assurance that they will be a neutral nation and not join NATO.
If they join NATO, my understanding is that they will have nuclear weapons from America, Russia will be effectively surrounded by American weapons..

It sounds to me like this is maybe not so much trying to re gain land (Ukraine) but maybe more trying to protect the land that is already there (Russia)

NATO is a defence organisation. They would only attack Russia if Russia attacked one of their countries.

Putin has long talked about wanting to get the former Soviet Union back. He annexed Crimea and wants Ukraine as a land corridor to Crimea. I imagine Ukraine wanted to join NATO to try to prevent Russia from being able to invade them. Putin has pre-emptively attacked Ukraine whilst he still could without incurring the counter attack from NATO that they would be obliged to engage in.

Are you seriously saying that demanding citizens leave before destroying their homes and businesses is an act of decency? Making refugees of entire citizens and destroying their livelihoods.

A reasonable person would not be attacking them in the first place!

Here in the UK and across the world, we are blessed with top medical professionals from Ukraine. Surgeons who save lives. Their teaching hospitals and universities are top notch. It will be a huge huge loss to the world to lose Ukraine.

@WetRainbowRoses

I want to say something controversial here.

It is being widely reported on Al Jazeerah and RT (and one British news outlet) that the Russian troops have been ordering the evacuation of Ukrainian civilians before a strike so it appeara that they are not targeting civilians at all.

Putin claims not to actually want control of Ukraine but for Ukraine to give an assurance that they will be a neutral nation and not join NATO.
If they join NATO, my understanding is that they will have nuclear weapons from America, Russia will be effectively surrounded by American weapons..

It sounds to me like this is maybe not so much trying to re gain land (Ukraine) but maybe more trying to protect the land that is already there (Russia)

Twisted logic - Russia already has a border with NATO countries, how is Ukraine different to them?

@WetRainbowRoses - oh, fuck off.
So invading an independent country, destroying it, killing its officials and replacing them with a puppet government to keep the order of things as you want is just grand.

Seriously, the cowardice and ignorance of the British knows no limits. Just rot.

I'm hoping Biden will send in his Seals to take Putin out and then deny all knowledge. It's not like America has never got two countries confused before. Biden was calling Ukraine Iraq in his recent speech ffs.

He's a nutcase - he won't stop.

I'm shocked by some of the posts on here. Whatever happened to standing up for what is right. Ship out the government, let him have the land, tell all the ordinary Ukrainians to just settle down and behave themselves and leave them to their fate - I mean they can't win so why even try eh? - fuck that! These are actual people with actual lives.

I understand that NATO etc means we're limited in what we can do but thats not the same as encouraging a whole country to give up their land and their freedom just for a quiet life.

It's all very "sod you jack, I'm alright" isn't it. Its not happening to us so.....

It's like " first they came for the Jews and I did nothing because I was not a jew" we know how that one ended

I'd like to think of the roles were reversed and we were attacked by a bigger country we'd bloody fight and we'd call on our neighbours for help so why the hell shouldn't Ukraine?

I don't know what the answer is but surely it can't just be abandon the weakest and let the bigger boys do whatever they want so they don't make a fuss.

Putin is a proper history buff, he spent about 30 minutes in his big speech talking about the historical significance of the Ukraine.

He's not happy about, Nato, he's not happy about the treatment of some Ethnic Russians, but mostly he just wants Ukraine back, because he feels it BELONGS to Russia.

Ukraine must really mean something important to Putin, because who the hell would choose to take on responsibility for the Chernobyl site for the rest of humanity.

@WetRainbowRoses

I want to say something controversial here.

It is being widely reported on Al Jazeerah and RT (and one British news outlet) that the Russian troops have been ordering the evacuation of Ukrainian civilians before a strike so it appeara that they are not targeting civilians at all.

Putin claims not to actually want control of Ukraine but for Ukraine to give an assurance that they will be a neutral nation and not join NATO.
If they join NATO, my understanding is that they will have nuclear weapons from America, Russia will be effectively surrounded by American weapons..

It sounds to me like this is maybe not so much trying to re gain land (Ukraine) but maybe more trying to protect the land that is already there (Russia)

Well you’re right, that’s certainly controversial….

Another POV…

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/constant-shelling-as-russian-forces-lay-siege-to-key-ukrainian-cities-kyiv-mariupol

A country being in NATO does not automatically mean American nuclear weapons will or can be placed on it’s soil.

I can see the Russian people turning on Putin before anything happens. They’re money is drying up and they’ll become poorer which they will not like.
Even the captive soldiers are like ‘we’ve been fed lies, we’ve been sent to destroy the peaceful people of Ukraine’.
I don’t think the Russian army is powerful as we are led to believe.

@Cyw2018 - he might be a proper history buff but it's more legends than facts.
As far as I know, he didn't mention the fact that Kyiv Rus was actually founded by the good old Vikings and the Rurik dynasty weren't of Slavonic origin.
Funny enough, I can't see the Norwegian Royal Family laying claim to Ukraine or Russia.