Ukraine cannot win.

[Benmac]

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders.
However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine.
Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that
So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out?
Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.
The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency.
EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in.
In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

[quote EerieSilence]@Cyw2018 - he might be a proper history buff but it's more legends than facts.
As far as I know, he didn't mention the fact that Kyiv Rus was actually founded by the good old Vikings and the Rurik dynasty weren't of Slavonic origin.
Funny enough, I can't see the Norwegian Royal Family laying claim to Ukraine or Russia.[/quote]
I think Putin believes whatever version of anything that Putin wants to believe.

He wants Belarus - which is in his pocket already- and Ukraine,as part of Great Russia, Slavic countries all.

He believes in ' life force/power of nations' and has firmly stated that West, particularly Anglo-Saxons, have had their day and must be replaced.His speeches are entertaining.

@MsTSwift

Yes it’s amazing and they are so brave but can’t you see they cannot win? Russia is a world superpower

Putin can't win in Ukraine. It is too large a country to secure. What he can do is crush parts of it, as he is doing with cities just now. That kind of warfare never brings victory, only never ending engagement in guerilla warfare. There are other aspects of this war which are intriguing. The Russian army is not efficient. It's a conscript army in part .Their pay is rubbish and morale low. Young soldiers have been wandering about, unsure of where they are and why they are there. It made me laugh when the Ukranians who found them actually phoned their mothers back in Russia to say their boys were ok. The Russians were horrified to find they were attacking Ukraine because many have relatives on both sides of the border. This is not a popular war back home either. There have been demonstrations against it. Anti war feeling will get worse as sanctions bite deeper. If Putin's colleagues feel the same, there could be s regime channge So, while glorious triumph on a battlefield cannot be expected for either Putin or Zelensky, I wouldn't write off Ukraine just yet.

I agree with everyone who admires the Ukrainian president and the people for their courage.
I wish they could win.
I am saying in the face of inevitable defeat the war should stop.
Of course the Ukrainians will do everything to subvert Russian occupation.
I am saying probably very badly that the fighting in the country should stop but Russia should be punished with sanctions and anything else to hurt them.

The west is encouraging them supplying arms

@Longdistance

I don’t think the Russian army is powerful as we are led to believe.

IMHO jury is very much still out.

It looks like the initial thoughts from the Russian side were it would be a pushover, no need to needlessly engage civiliansand does indeed look like the first echelons of Russian forces were told they were on a peacekeeping operation…”hearts and minds”….

That would explain the frankly odd tactics Russian armour has been using which has led to them seemingly being an easy target, and also the obvious confusion amongst some of the Russian troops taken prisoner.

The danger now is those at the top have a rethink, realise they are in an actual war need to move quickly.

There is the a danger then the Russian’s revert to operating iaw their doctrine of flattening everything with artillery, rockets and air strikes, then move in/forward with troops who have been properly briefed and have been told not to worry about civilian casualties…

it’s only then we will know how powerful they are and whether their kit is really crap, as somebody I think claimed upthread.

@Benmac

I agree with everyone who admires the Ukrainian president and the people for their courage. I wish they could win. I am saying in the face of inevitable defeat the war should stop. Of course the Ukrainians will do everything to subvert Russian occupation. I am saying probably very badly that the fighting in the country should stop but Russia should be punished with sanctions and anything else to hurt them.

As you've said though, to stop the fighting you want them to give up their land. Their home. Hand that over to Putin and do you honestly think he'll turn around and say okay done now. He won't. This is just the start. He'll go for more and more, and at some point you have to say no. Ukraine are doing that.

I agree with you op. All those people dying and it feels so hopeless, Putin just getting nastier and nastier.

But then if you look at Putin and his policies, no way would I want that in my country. I wouldn’t want my country set back to the past. Before the war, I would have much rather have lived in the Ukraine vs Russia.

So I suppose they have to fight for every right they can.

My hope is that Putin dies and the person who takes over decides to make peace. No way Putin will back down.

It’ll be 10 years of war I think.

As others have said, he also won’t let life go back to normal if he wins. He’ll probably bulldoze over the country to give ‘his’ people more land, put people in torture camps, who knows what else.

The Ukrainians will fight and will continue to fight even once Russia have sieved control. They will require a constant Russian military presence to keep things under control there and will be squeezed on all sides by sanctions from the West.
I think hope that once Putin goes Russia will realised that it isn't worth the hassle and will be ready to strike some sort of a "deal"

To hold the occupied Ukraine Russia's forces must be 40x of those of Ukraine.They are not.

@caringcarer

If the West stands by and watches Putin invade and does not offer arms too aid Ukraine, Putin will just pick off countries one at a time. Moldova could be the next. Finland is not far away. And in Ukraine they have 4 sites of nuclear weapons. If a strike hits one of them the fall out will be all of Europe.

This is another reason.

What next? What would he attempt if we all just let him take a country?

Even if Ukraine has to be the example.

OP Ukraine is not yours to give away.

@Benmac

The west is encouraging them supplying arms

The problem is that, because Ukraine is not a NATO country, NATO can't supply 'people'. They can keep supply routes open (although Putin is having a hissy fit about that at the moment).

But, if Ukraine falls, the next countries to the western borders are all NATO except Finland. If Putin allows even a stray rocket to land or one soldier 'wanders' in those countries we are all, potentially, at war - that's what we signed up for when we joined NATO - one NATO country gets invaded, we all join the fight. So NATO countries have to keep Putin to the East of Ukraine.

Keeping Ukraine fighting keeps Putin in Russia (we hope).

Putin says he doesn't want NATO on his doorstep but wants Ukraine. Ukraine borders Poland, Hungary and Romania - all NATO countries. So if he gets Ukraine, he gets NATO neighbours by default. Those countries won't give up being in NATO for him, why should they?

So what do you think he'll do if he has NATO neighbours which he doesn't want?

I agree OP. It's going to end badly for Ukrainians whether they hold out or not :( but it could end even worse for the rest of the world.
I pray to God for a ceasefire.

It wont end well for Putin either, Russia will become a pariah state and he will never again be allowed on the World stage.

@Justkeeppedaling

I'm hoping Biden will send in his Seals to take Putin out and then deny all knowledge. It's not like America has never got two countries confused before. Biden was calling Ukraine Iraq in his recent speech ffs.

Actually, he called it Iran. So you've called it something different by mistake too @Justkeeppedaling. ffs

Putin has already said that he will go after Sweden and Finland if they look like they want to join NATO. He has no intention of stopping at Ukraine.

Rolling into Ukraine with guns blazing is one thing. But occupying a country is a whole different ball game.

If Russia do beat Ukraine, they will be in an urban guerrilla war, which can last years.
Russian economy is already in massive decline after just one week, imagine what it will be like in 6 months if this continues, and with further sanctions that can be applied.

The people of Russia will suffer hugely too, cannot travel, no international sports, food shortages, no economy, losing family to war.... Russia may win some battles, but not the war.

Plus Russia failing economy, means his invasion force will be poorly supplied. Soldiers with limited food and ammonition give up or die...

@TooBig... Finns have submitted a petition to join NATO. Yesterday.

@Benmac

The west is encouraging them supplying arms

Encouraging or helping them to defend themselves against an invading army?

i'm another one praying for "special forces" unaffiliated to any particular country. sending strong positive vibes to anonymous for ethical hacking of russian war communications.