Ukraine cannot win.

[Benmac]

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders.
However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine.
Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that
So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out?
Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.
The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency.
EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in.
In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

A lot of pundits saying Putin fears democracy. Mention of NATO is red herring, he's said quite neutral things about NATO until recently.

Ukraine can win the propaganda war. That is more important. Russian ppl deserve better, too

Thanks for the reports - we've moved this over to our News topic now.

I'm sure this is a very stupid question, but are there no circumstances under which NATO powers would/could arrange for his assassination?

Also, a lot is being said about war crimes, can't "we" do something about that? Otherwise what's the point of things being designated war crimes?

My opinion is that there wasn’t enough t done to prevent this situation arising. I don’t see Putin as being worse then Tony Blair. I think it’s a reasonable request for Ukraine to be a neutral country and not join NATO. I hope a ceasefire happens shortly and deaths are minimised.

I agree. No no fly zone or Nato involvement - that would lead to WW3. What would be the point in that? We're in for the long haul. I think Europe knows that because they've offered three year no visa asylum to Ukrainians. It took years to get rid of Hitler too.

Instead the West is putting its effort into sanctions and isolation in the hope it will either result in a palace coup, or financial meltdown and people power to get rid of Putin. It will take time. No one knows how ordinary Russians will respond. Will they resent us for causing their financial chaos? I think it's going to take some time for that to work. Especially if we are still buying their gas and oil. Who will fall first? Ukraine or Russia? Only time will tell. And there's a possibility Russia will just go back into a cold war type of existence too.

Zelinskiy and the Ukrainians won't give up without a massive fight... respect and awe to them. I really hope they don't kill him. And Russians are doing surprisingly badly on the ground too! And it's clear that if Ukraine falls it will be an occupation, Ukrainians will not accept being part of Russia.

So who would have known it... when push came to shove, that nuclear weapons would have been so useless as well as expensive and horrible!

One last thing... If Bojo and Petty Patel would a) offer decent asylum to Ukrainians and b)cut off their Russian's friends' finances properly, instead of giving them 30 days to get their money out and sell Chelsea, sanctions would be a lot more helpful and I would hate them both a little less.

Says someone who has never had their country invaded??

No, we should absolutely NOT be encouraging the Ukrainians to surrender. We should do and continue to do whatever we can to support them.

As for telling Russia, "they can have the land"...What on earth are you thinking?!

The problem has got this bad because Putin has kept pushing and pushing the boundaries and no one has stood up to him. This is the line in the sand. You think "giving" him Ukraine (as if it's yours to give away) will stop him? He'll then move on to trying to take back the Baltics.

The Ukrainians will win in the end. And I certainly hope it doesn't take them a generation to do it, but they will continue for as long as it takes.

Why do you have multiple identical threads?

Forgot to add, I think Putin needs a victory in the Ukraine to get War out of his system and to get his name in the history books, otherwise he is likely to try something else.

I am much more optimistic that sanctions will have a very strong effect and that some kind of accident might befall Putin. The Oligarchs are not going to put up with having all their assets seized and not being able to travel freely. The general population will get more and more angry when they cannot access cash or buy things in the shops. Boris and his mealy mouthed attempts at sanctions here makes him a traitor in my opinion. Bought by the Russians.

putin is sending young inexperienced boys that know nothing about the real war and often situation in Ukraine to fight with angry, well trained man. There are countless videos of captured Russian 'soldiers' who are begging for forgiveness. www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/27/ukrainian-officials-upload-videos-of-captured-russian-soldiers-on-telegram

The whole world (including many Russians) is supporting Ukraine and it is vital that they win to prevent more Russian aggression. I'm not even going to comment on the ' give them what they want and leave', read a bit about national identity and then reflect on that.

@thebellagio

Can I ask something stupid? My understanding is that Putin has invaded Ukraine because he was scared they wanted to join Nato (and ironically proved their point of why they wanted to join it).

Can they not just suggest a treaty that agrees they won't consider joining Nato until 2100 (in 78 years time) - or some other time frame, but that Russia needs to pull away immediately and leave them the fuck alone?

That was just an excuse. There is already an agreement with NATO & Russia that nuclear weapons will not be positioned in Eastern Europe to avoid conflict (think when Russia used Cuba as a nuclear weapons location).

Putin has lost the plot and wants the former USSR empire back. If Russia manages to get control of Ukraine I am fairly sure Moldova will be next on his plan and then other non NATO countries that were former USSR. Not sure he is crazy enough to go for the former USSR countries that are now part of NATO but the chances are we will all be nuked by then.

@Alexandra2001

He has 6000 nuclear weapons, he’s clearly Ill in some way and unpredictable *He calls the shots really. It’s not right but what’s the alternative WW38

Putin threatened nuclear in 2008 and in 2014, its a playbook that works, so he did it again in 2022 & its working again.

He has children in Holland, his chain of command & his advisors do not want to be incinerated either.

No point being a dead dictator.

My concern is if he’s terminally ill would he care ?

Can they not just suggest a treaty that agrees they won't consider joining Nato until 2100 (in 78 years time) - or some other time frame, but that Russia needs to pull away immediately and leave them the fuck alone?

That was part of what Russia wanted but Ukraine didn't want to be told what to do. Russia will want a lot more than that now.

It's not at all clear giving in to a bully like Putin would work but (given we had no intention of allowing Ukraine into NATO) I do think the west dropped the ball a bit by not engaging with Russia years ago over NATO expansion.

@DetailMouse incorrect assumption. NATO is a defensive alliance it will not attack, its purpose is to defend its members, hence no actual involvement in Ukraine.
Europe is full of small countries, left on their own, those would have been picked out by Russia years ago, meaning wars in Europe.
The larger NATO is the better to the world peace.
Russia would always find a reason to bully another country.

@stairway

My opinion is that there wasn’t enough t done to prevent this situation arising. I don’t see Putin as being worse then Tony Blair. I think it’s a reasonable request for Ukraine to be a neutral country and not join NATO. I hope a ceasefire happens shortly and deaths are minimised.

It's only a reasonable if that's what Ukraine want. It's not for the president of another country to tell them what they can and cannot do.

If Putin rocks up to Britain would you be happy to roll over and be a Russian prisoner forever?

I'd sooner die.

They can't win because the democratic countries in Europe are standing by and letting the Ukranians be slaughtered and their cities carpet bombed. Its a disgrace.

We have let this escalate over the decades we have taken the 'soft' approach with Putin, its a classic case of a tyrant escalating as he realises no-one is doing anything about his 'micro aggressions' (not so micro, murdering dissidents in our country and our citizens too). That was the time to strangle the economy of Russia, not now. Now we need to support Ukraine with planes, and troops.

We are sending a message to Russia and other despots that the West will let them get away with murderous land grabs.

Some things are worth fighting for.

Or should World War II not have happened & everyone should have just shrugged & let Germany get on with it?

What if Putin then wants the countries next to Ukraine?
They are small, shall we just let him have those too?

Or do they have some sort of magically different people who should be supported & we fight then?

I heard some expert or other saying Putin has 190k troops. That’s enough to take Ukraine with a fair wind behind him, but it is nowhere near enough to occupy it for any amount of time.

Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.

1. President Zelensky (as already said earlier in the post) was offered evacuation by the USA and said 'I need ammunition, not a ride'. I would imagine the offers stays on the table should he need it.
2. 'Let Russia take the country...They can have the land'....It's not yours to give away, not ours to persuade the Ukrainians to give. It's their land and it's theirs to fight for if they so choose.
3. Would you give England to France? Or Scotland to Norway? Or would you fight until you had no fight in you? It's fine saying give the refugees aid but if it were you @Benmac which country would you like to make your home in? Possibly split up from your family if they've had to go elsewhere? Possibly having to learn a new language, definitely having to cope with a new way of life. Not making the decision to move elsewhere but being pushed out to somewhere you may not actually want to live or feel at home in?

Ukraine is not just 'land'. It's a whole nations home and if they want to fight for it (as I would for my home land) I back them all the way.

Let's hope we're never invaded again - some people would leave their key under the mat and a welcome pack in their kitchen!

Brainwave89
Watch the Snake Island video where on being asked to surrender there is a discussion amongst the Ukrainian soldiers-"shall we tell him to fuck off?- yes please do" "FUCK OFF!". All of those brave soldiers were shot. No one forced them this is a proud people fighting for their country. They will lose a conventional war at some point. Then a guerilla war is likely to go on for a number of years. We can supply arms, medical supplies and we can be generous in taking in refugees until the Russian invasion collapses

Apparently not. They have been taken POW.

Sadly not, they were blown up 😢

I don’t see Putin as being worse then Tony Blair.

Well. That’s quite the statement, isn’t it.

And the message here to countries is to keep or acquire Nuclear weapons. Ukraine gave those up in 1994 with the promise from Russia, USA and Britain to protect them if they did.....

Putin wants to restore the USSR, he wants those countries back, so no it doesn't stop at the Ukraine.

Why the fuck should the Ukraine and the Ukrainian people just roll over and say sure Vlad can have my country, no worries, I'll get a hammer and sickle tat too, starting speaking Russian, hell I'll start wanking to pictures of Vlad, start calling him daddy Vlad and tickle his balls. No.

They're not going to back down, they're not going to roll over, they're not going to give Putin what he wants. Russia faces economic ruin, and bar what China, Pakistan, who is actually supporting Russia?

I like to think that the SAS and the USA equivalent are planning to assassinate Putin. I would gladly put a bullet in his head given the chance. I am in awe of the brave Ukrainian people. My heart breaks for them.