Ukraine cannot win.

[Benmac]

I am so moved by the Ukrainians opposition to the Russian invaders.
However, without other countries assisting with troops on the ground it is inevitable that Russia will overcome Ukraine.
Europe and the USA cannot do that without starting WW3 and Putin knows that
So how much longer do we encourage Ukraine to hold out?
Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.
The sanctions will hit Russia hard when they get going. Let Putin then try to run Russia and Ukraine with no hard currency.
EU countries must take the hit and stop buying Russian gas which will slow money transferring in.
In an ideal world Ukraine would hold out long enough to force Russia to withdraw. In this real world thousands of civilians will be slaughtered from now and the end game will be the same

@Fandangofran

"Let Russia take the land"

Sure.

And when Putin decides Ukraine isn't enough and wants to invade yet more countries then what? We just tell all the people they should clear out and let him take whatever he feels like? When exactly do we think people should be allowed to say stop.

Its very casual to say that the Ukrainians should just give up their country or put up with living life under foreign rule.

If an invading force turned up here and tried to take Britain I can't imagine everyone being OK with just saying "sure no problem - take whatever you want. We'll just go elsewhere"

They may not stand a chance but they're willing to fight for their freedom as long as they can. Fair play to them.

I'm assuming the whole world is holing up in Aus unless @mycarisBananacustard and Co think as part of letting him win so he doesn't play dirty means leaving him people to rule over too? Just ship out each PM / RF and let them just become Russian 🙄

YABU, and you are being very defeatist about something that is by no means cut and dried. Ukrainians will stick it out for as long as it takes, they have nothing to lose as many of them would rather be dead than live under Putin's rule. The Russian soldiers don't have the same courage of their convictions, because many of them didn't agree or understand the mission in the first place, and were surprised that they weren't greeted with open arms by the Ukrainians. This is going to be a bloodbath, no doubt about it, but Ukrainians are absolutely justified in defending their country, no matter how long it takes. The blood is all on Putin's hands, and hopefully someone will assassinate him soon.

I am fearful of the consequences if we place our troops on the ground, because maybe Putin would make an example of us with a nuke or two, as the UK is far enough away that the nuclear fallout would not affect Russia much. I know this sounds cowardly of me, but Putin seems insane. Hopefully this fear will be unfounded, but it seems to be the rationale for NATO deciding not to take an active part in the war. In a way I would like to call his bluff, but the potential if he went nuclear would be devastating (although I think it likely his generals may refuse to cooperate in that scenario, so might not input the required codes etc).

Long live Zelenskyy, and long live Ukraine!

He has 6000 nuclear weapons, he’s clearly Ill in some way and unpredictable
*He calls the shots really. It’s not right but what’s the alternative WW38

Putin threatened nuclear in 2008 and in 2014, its a playbook that works, so he did it again in 2022 & its working again.

He has children in Holland, his chain of command & his advisors do not want to be incinerated either.

No point being a dead dictator.

Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country why are we evacuating the PM and his Govt? There's a population of over 44 million. Why should he be saved over them if we're just suggesting rolling over and letting Putin have his toy

@RedWingBoots

The US offered to get the president out. He said "no".

Ukrainians would rather die than let Putin have their country.

You've got to respect that , but I fear that's what will happen, they'll die and lose their country. Russia won't give up until it's over and they have far more people they're prepared to let die. They won't have any qualms at all about sending 100s of thousands of Russian soldiers to die.

The Ukrainian response has been amazing, but surely just delays the inevitable?. Russia expected it to be over quickly, all credit to Ukraine that it's not, but there would have been far less bloodshed if it was and the bigger and more difficult the conflict becomes, the more dangerous it is for the rest of the world

@Joinedforthis22

Ukrainians would rather die than let Putin have their country.

This! They think it's worth dying for, it might not be a mindset that we can understand but then are sovereignty and culture are not being threatened. Think of Churchill's "we will fight them on the beaches etc. Etc. We will never surrender"

This.

I am aware of people from countries that may be next - women as well as men - thinking of leaving their much more comfortable lives as immigrants in the west to go back to fight, if “next” were to come true.
To show you the strength of feeling Re. the above.

Whatever happens in Ukraine, Putin will never, ever be trusted or respected by the rest of the world again (with the possible exception of Donald Trump). I believe he has grossly underestimated the spirit and resolve of the Ukrainians and the revulsion of most of the rest of the world. Even if Ukraine is defeated, Russia will not have won.

Dictators never really win, not in the end.

Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place. They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees

Would you be so cavalier with your own home country?

He’s holding the world hostage with his threats 😞
This is absolutely true. It won’t stop with Ukraine either, and there’s no one to stop him carrying on unless someone puts a bullet in his head
I don’t think sanctions will touch him, it’s the general population of Russia who will suffer long before Putin and the oligarchy.
He will have ensured that he stay comfortable and safe.
Poor, poor Ukraine, it’s so dreadful to watch what’s happening 😢

Can I ask something stupid? My understanding is that Putin has invaded Ukraine because he was scared they wanted to join Nato (and ironically proved their point of why they wanted to join it).

Can they not just suggest a treaty that agrees they won't consider joining Nato until 2100 (in 78 years time) - or some other time frame, but that Russia needs to pull away immediately and leave them the fuck alone?

Watch the Snake Island video where on being asked to surrender there is a discussion amongst the Ukrainian soldiers-"shall we tell him to fuck off?- yes please do" "FUCK OFF!". All of those brave soldiers were shot. No one forced them this is a proud people fighting for their country. They will lose a conventional war at some point. Then a guerilla war is likely to go on for a number of years. We can supply arms, medical supplies and we can be generous in taking in refugees until the Russian invasion collapses.

@MikeandDave

It's not impossible that a smaller country can beat a bigger country in a war look at Vietnam.

Is it more accurate to say the aggressor usually loses, certainly in the end? And aggressors are usually larger states taking on smaller states or principalities.

@Brainwave89

Watch the Snake Island video where on being asked to surrender there is a discussion amongst the Ukrainian soldiers-"shall we tell him to fuck off?- yes please do" "FUCK OFF!". All of those brave soldiers were shot. No one forced them this is a proud people fighting for their country. They will lose a conventional war at some point. Then a guerilla war is likely to go on for a number of years. We can supply arms, medical supplies and we can be generous in taking in refugees until the Russian invasion collapses.

Apparently not. They have been taken POW.

@earsup Russia has large part of Finland, Karjala 🤬. Threatening Finland and Sweden directly to park any notion of joining NATO or face military and political consequences show that Russia wouldn't mind taking another chunk of sovereign democratic country.
Finns have said- go whistle - by submitting a petition, yesterday, to start the process of joining NATO.

@thebellagio

Can I ask something stupid? My understanding is that Putin has invaded Ukraine because he was scared they wanted to join Nato (and ironically proved their point of why they wanted to join it).

Can they not just suggest a treaty that agrees they won't consider joining Nato until 2100 (in 78 years time) - or some other time frame, but that Russia needs to pull away immediately and leave them the fuck alone?

On my understanding a form of words could be reached which accepted that Ukraine would not join NATO. However this was never going to be enough. The decision to invade was in practice taken prior to Christmas.

I completely agree.

They can't win.

I desperately want them too. Their resilience and sheer bravery has moved me to tears. But they can't win. And no one else can join the fight until Putin puts a foot in NATO territory.

So yes, whilst they may have the hearts of the world behind them, they can not match the Russian firepower. We can equip them with the same artillery. But for every tank/gun/whatever we provide them, there are 10 times already in the trained Russian forces.

I don't know what we do. I don't know what they do. Russia's overtaking of Ukraine is inevitable when only Ukraine is allowed to fight back.

I truly believe Russia will die a slow death after this. But Ukraine will be taken first. And I hate that. I've never admired a country more.

@Brainwave89
There have been reports, backed up with pictures, that show the Snake Island soldiers eventually surrendered and have been bussed back into Russian custody as POWs having all survived.

Where is Putin in all of this?, someone asked upthread.

He's probably hiding in Boris' fridge at the foot of a very, very long table

Ukraine, is in front of us. He won't stop at Ukraine, he'll keep going, and then he'll reach the UK.

Putin doesn't have enough troops to hold Ukraine and an armed resistance would make life difficult for him. This could be his Afghanistan.

Isn't it the expansion of Nato into the former Soviet Union that's led to this? You can see why he'd be nervous to have NATO on his doorstep. Doesn't make any of it right, but you can see why it's a problem for him.

The Ukraine is a world leader in agricultural exports. We all lose if Russia gets the Ukraine

I think, selfishly but pragmatically, that the only and best thing we can do is to fund/ provide weapons to the Ukraine military for as long as the Ukrainians can keep fighting the russians (and provide the upmost support to refugees including permenent residency), and hope that a long hard fight against the badass Ukranians and some really tough sanctions will mean that once Russia has won the Ukraine and taken it back into Russia, that they won't have any fight left in them.

If Russia win against Ukraine to easily this will bolster Putin and then he will go on to invade EU/ Nato, ex USSR countries and it will definetly be WW3, and If NATO get directly involved in the Ukraine now it will be WW3.

It is all so sad and depressing.

Should we not be making arrangements to get the president and his government out, let Russia take the country but leave all the sanctions against it in place.
They can have the land. Aid can be given to assist the refugees.

The Ukrainians have not even made any hint of a suggestion that they would want that..so no.