MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

Bunglie, there's nothing I can say that will come close to helping so I won't try, but I just wanted to send you hugs. I'm thinking of you.

Oh bunglie

sorry you feel so low

just feel so powerless to help - like all I can say is shake my head and say that's so awful - i did read that story from the kids perspective that you posted but again didn't really feel I could post as all I could say was - how awful that they weren't taking the kids views into consideration.

you have the right to feel anything you want. you've not been dealt an easy hand in life. from your posts your fair-mindedness and dignity shines through so clear.

it's a bit frustrating isn't it that the real story website hasn't followed up the appeal. i have had a look on guardian and telegraph websites just now, but not found anything relevant to that appeal. there is an interesting article though on junk science and miscarriages of justice:-

here

Bunglie - yes the application to reopen the case was rejected - see this from the Guradian , and this from The Scotsman .

I would like to ask a question (or two).

If you watched the programme last week the Real Story about a mother accused of attempting to kill her daughter 4 times and being found guilty of this on the grounds that she has MSbP.; do you
a) think that she is guilty?
b) think she has MSbP?
c) Believe she is a danger to her daughter now?
d) Believe it is right that the child was freed for adoption.?

If you do not htink that this mother should be seperated from her daughter for ever, and I mean forever, it is worse than knowing your child has died, because they are being brought up by another person and told that you, their mother tried to harm them. A child will believe and have loyalties to it's care givers...but that is assuming that the information (the care givers or adopters) is correct.

I am sorry but I thought 15 years ago when this happened to me it was a miscarriage of justice and I have kept my silence, but for it still to be happening 15 years on...I do not understand. Why? The diagnosis, the doctors have been discredited, yet children are still being removed due to MSbP.

Please this family has lost more than you can imagine. They are Muslim, they have brought shame on the rest of their family they have now to go through a whole series of emotions that I hope no one reading this ever has to cope with, that is the loss of a child and the accusation of attempted murder.

If you do not believe that this is right then please do something, send an email to Margaret Hodge the children Minister, telling her what you think, or to your own MP. You can find their email address here...MP Locator
please ensure that you include your name and address in your email and print it off and send it by snail mail....I doubt it will help these greiving parents, but we have got to stop this from happening, I hope that history will look back and realise that we were right. I would not ask you if I did not believe in their innocence. I do not understand, when people admit it is wrong the children are being taken....why?
As mothers it is time we put a stop to this and are no longer afraid to take our children to the doctor. Yes, Child abuse does exist, but why will they move heaven and earth to support a drug addict to keep their child (a child is better off with it's parents, even if under supervision 24 hrs a day, but they will not offer the same support to a mother accused of MSbP.) but a spurious diagnosis of MSbP is denying parents and children from normal lives...why have we let our society get away with this and how do we stop it?

I am finding it hard to believe, after all of the evidence. I know that this mother did nothing, but that she is still having her child adopted, something has gone wrong somewhere and if the government keeps 'brushing this under the carpet' I for one will be found chained to the railings,wheelchair and all.

Please if you think this mother is innocent write and email your MP. She has little hope now, but I would like her to realise that she has support and that means that we believe her. She will need a reason to live, let us give her that at least, by showing we believe in her.

Please email your MP and Margaret Hodge and tell her what you think...this has got to stop.

I would like to ask something of all of you this Christmas. I realise that I have no right to ask this of you but I hope that maybe just one of you will oblige this Bunglie.

Christmas is a time for families. Mumsnet is a place where I have been made to feel welcome, but I do not have a family and yet you have helped and supported me.

I am one person out of hundreds who have been unjustly seperated from my children due to the system of Family courts we have in this country and the diagnosis, made falsely in so many cases of MSbP.

I would like to ask you all that when you light your candels, whether it be on your Christmas table or wherever that you just silently think of all the mothers who are seperated from their children, for whatever reason unjustly. Also please think of those children who have been removed from their families for their own safety and think of the selflesness of the adoptive and Foster parents.

Christmas is a time for families and for many it is a very hard time of year, please if you can just spare a few minutes thought for these families and if you educate just one person as to what has been, and is still happening then this will be the best Christmas present that you can give me and many families.

Sobeit- I hope that your dd is not too uncomfortable this Chritmas...but if I could knit I would have knitted her something by now...I hope that her Christmas is not too uncomfortable.

Awen -Are you going to have your DS for Christmas and I hope that even if you don't that Christmas for the two of you is special, I shall be thinking of you.

IKNT- Have a wonderful Christmas with your children, and wrap up warm...I know that you will have any excuse to drink hot toddies and egg nog!

Cheesy and Spuddy are spending Christmas together. Unfortunately the council turned down their request for a flat for the two of them to live together and offered Cheesy a bedsit as well. They are appealing the decision but more about them later. I spoke to Spuddy on the telephone, (I'm stingey and don't phone mobiles for long!) but they were going to spend it together in Spuddies bedsit. I hope to take a basket from 'Father Christmas' over to them in the week.

Let this Christmas be one of Peace and Goodwill to all, and please spare a thought also for the couple who recently 'lost' their dd in the court of appeal.

THANK YOU all for your help & support over the last year
With Christmas love and hoping that you all have a very happy Christmas,
Bunglie XX

Please do not think that I have made a decission or anything....I am not letting out any info about anything but I would like your opinion on one thing....I am too close to see for myself and need an objective opinion.

If and it is an if I decided to go public do you think that I have a story that people would want to read, or are people a bit fed up of reading about MSbP etc and I would be doing something for nothing....I wish I could say more...but I just want your opinions. If I did it would not be something that happened in the near future...so don't panic...I just want to know your opinion on if you think it is a story.

I would definitely read it Bunglie. Are you thinking of writing a novel type of thing - would that be allowed? Also have been thinking, I know you would be breaching a British Order by going public here but what about abroad?

Hi Bunglie. Thank you for your posting on the 19th.. You know I am actually considering taking in some extra kids presents to social services. Altho they took my baby for a time it is for all the other kids.. Do you think they would think me odd?

Regarding writing your store, regardless of whether people would read it (altho I think they should) it may help you a little in penning it down and having it there for others to read, Dont know if that makes sense.

I am blessed as I have my ds for xmas, his dad just collected him and will drop him back xmas eve. ds didnt want to leave again but it seems to be getting easier for him as he knows it will only be 4 sleeps till he is back, better than the usual amount. You know this time last year he wasnt staying overnight and this time 2 years ago i got to see him every other week for 2 hours supervised for him to maintain a 'knowledge' of me. In fact we maintained the amazing bond we still share. I dont know how i coped back when i couldnt kiss him goodnight or be jumped on by him in the morning (like i was this morning, bless ) BUT i did cope, as so many other mums appear to have to. No matter what happens I will never give up on him and never have. I actually was critisized by ss and gal as i was so tenacious in the fact that i would not give up and they used that to say i was mental too!! Daft eh?

Anyway.. I have burbled on again and I am sorry, think we could all write a book as collective experiences!

Big hugs and hope you all have special christmas' and that for those in the world that do not have family around, are blessed by the kindness of others.

Peace and love xx

Hello Bunglie. I think it would be good if you wrote about your experience and it could be given to others, including groups etc (like womens groups) I am sure people would be most interested and may even get involved if you gave out some sort of contact details or website.
When I first heard about msbp, I found it difficult to get the tail end of the story - I could tell mothers were being imprisoned and some had their children removed and eventually - reading more and more and seeing the mama dvd, I became very convinced that something terrible was amiss. Hearing the personal side of the story from parents would give a better picture of what is happening - it would be some task though, I imagine...maybe as Awenamanger said - a collective story from different parents would be good? It would prove to the readers that something is going on that needs urgent public scrutiny - anyway - just my thoughts on what you said. All the best - sobeit

I went to mass this evening and lit a candle and prayed for all the children and parents seperated this festive season...

Please dont lose hope..

I used to cover you with the blankets,
and tuck you up all warm.
I could keep you safe from the things
that go bump in the night
with a mere hug and a kiss goodnight.

We cannot be together at this time
so wanted you to know
that no matter where you are,
my heart is there with you
and every night, I cover you with a prayer,
to keep you safe and warm.

IKMT, that is beautiful, sad, but beautiful.

Bunglie - yes, I would read your story. Reading just a tiny bit on mumsnet about the dreaful situation you have found yourself in has been a revelation to me. I never knew how ' closed' the family courts were, how unfair the system is, I could make a list about the things these threads have opened my eyes to.

I will be thinking of all mothers separated from their children at what is, after all, a time for families to be together. Very special wishes to you.XX

Did you hear the interview with John Batt (Sally Clarke's solicitor) on PM yesterday lambasting the family court system? If you go to listen again he was on at 34.48 minutes into the programme.
I'll be thinking of all the lost mothers over Christmas.

I am asking friends to light a candle this Christmas and say a little prayer or spare a thought for all chidren and parents who are seperated at this time of year.
If you would like to do this the candles are being lit on Christmas eve, let us see if we can light the country with hope and love for our 'lost' children.
The other objective is to try and educate just one person as to what MSbP is and what has been happening.
I wish you all seasons greetings, and I hope that you can all have the best Christmas that you are able. Let us hope and pay that 2005 brings about the changes in the law that we all want.
Love, Peace and Hope to all

IKNT I love your poem and I hope you do not mind if I copy it and tie it to my candles. I am going to start a new thread just asking people to do this...so don't be surprised if you see it again.

If you would like to borrow a copy of the MAMA DVD I have got them and shall be sending them to Janh. You will be sent the DVD in a Jiffy bag and if you could keep that Jiffy bag and just stick a lable over the address and return it back to Janh so someone else can borrow it.
If you do want to see the MAMA movie, and in my opinion it is the duty of every parent to see it and it is the latest version with the last known interview with Roy meadows and Southall etc. Something every parent should see in my opinion. I also think it is a very fair portrayal of what has been happening and does show both sides and give the experts a chance to answer the allegations.
As I say all you have to do is CAT your Address to Janh, you can use your mumsnet name if you want...just as long as your address is there that is all that is needed. It would be appreciated if you could wait until after Christmas as the postal system and people are all very busy at the moment...don't worry I will remind you again!

InnKogMistelToe - thats a wonderful poem, sad but very apt

Bunglie - Of course i would read the story of what happened to your family - I am in no way bored by this topic - i actually find it fascinating (obviously in a very macabre way) how strangers (almost always men?) think they can make judgements and take away something so precious

Your suggestion that we should light candles in memory of the lost children has made me cry - will most definitely be doing that

will in fact need to make a list to decide how many to light because i think it would be nice to light candles in honour of several causes - will light a candle for the MHBP children and their parents first though!

I would like to thank you all for the lovely things you have said.
You have helped me answer a question...thank you.

If you would like to pledge to light a candle I started a thread here.Candle thread .Do you think it is alright...I am a bit worried some people may feel I am forcing this a bit?

dear bungle, this thread has really touched me and i will try and support you and others in any way i can.x

my beautiful dd just woke up and as i picked her up, i suddenly realised that although being a mum is hard, i couldnever,ever be without her!by love for her is so enourmous and i really send my utmost support to those who for whatever reason cannot be with thier children.
love to you all, especially over christmas.xxx

Firstly, For Champs.

MSbP stands for Munchausens Syndrome by Proxy. It was invented by Professor Sir Roy Meadow, who comes up before the GMC in the New Year, partly because of this, as does Dr David Southall who is the Dr who diagnosed Sally Clarkes Husband of killing their child just by watching a TV programme.
This is a very quick explanation, but it is where a mother is accused of deliberately making her child ill, for her own needs and attention and children are being taken away and put into care and adopted.
On the face of it it sounds right. I do not deny that child abuse exists but for the last 15 years the Secrecy of the Family Courts has allowed thousands of children be taken away , some within minutes of birth and adopted.
These mothers did nothing and certainly did not have this MSbP. Only recently have people been breaking the court orders that have 'gagged us, and stopped us from speaking out and people are slowly learning that parents have had children taken away and adopted and they could not win, because MSbP is not a recognised psychiatric condition and there is no defence against it. You can not win as anything that you do will be twisted around as a symptom.
In my own case I was cleared by a criminal court, the judge actually commented on how much I loved my children, but I lost my children in a Civil Court because I am in a wheelchair and I have a very rare illness, on the 'balance of probabilities' it was decided by Profesor Meadows, who never saw me, spoke to anyone who knew of me medically or saw any of my medical notes, yet he accused me without seeing me of having Munchausens Syndrome and therefore probably Munchausens Syndrome by Proxy. I had both my children taken away and adopted against my will and I was gagged by the courts so I break the law if I speak out, Identify myself or my children in anyway.
It is because of the Family court System and the 'no win' use of this diagnosis MSbP that children are still being taken away from their parents. If you scroll back down I think the 'Real Story' link is there...despite all the evidence that they had, last week this family lost their right of appeal and their daughter will be adopted in the New Year.
I would be the first to jump up and down and shout Child abuse, and as I said it does exist, but they should call it for what it is, smothering, poisoning or whatever, not some syndrome that has been discredited.
If you want to CAT Janh I shall ensure you get sent a copy of the latest movie about it and interview with the doctors concerned.
I could go on for ages as their is so much, but please bare in mind I have just given you the bare Bones.

MrsChristmasWallace, I do so much hope that you and your baby dd have a wonderful Christmas and thank you for thinking of us at this busy time.

If you want to know anything else champs then please ask.

Love to all Bunglie XX

you are such a lovley person bunglie, im so sorry to hear what has happend to you and to others me and dd will light a candle on xmas eve i will be thinking of you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am right in thinking this is what the nurse Beverley Allit had several years ago?

Yes, I believe that this is what she did have, or something similar as it is something that is normally done by people with a medical training in a situation where they can then be seen as the 'saviour' of the child. It is very, very rare for someone to do something like this who is not medically trained and certainly to her own children.
Beverly Allit was obviously a very sick woman.
But we are talking about parents who have done nothing and been diagnosed by a doctor who has not even had the courtesy to see them.
I wish Child abuse did not exist, I will be the first to admit that their are people like Beverly Allit, but Meadow's alone is responsible for over 5000 cases they recon.

Cleveland led to a government enquirey, that is all we want, but we are gagged and the fact that the accusing doctors like Meadows and Southall are being brought up in front of the GMC must say something?

bungle, for the first time, i am actually sat crying at a post..yours.
i cant begin to know how terrible this must be and (sorry to be ignorant) i didnt realise you had gone through the same experience, i thought you just felt very strongly..sorry.
you ar a very brave woman..i cant say much, just that i will be thinking of you and hope that one day you will be able to see your children again and explain things for your self.
i cant get rid of the goosepimples..my very warmest wishes to you.xxxxxxx

i don't know what to say. i am very scared whatever i say will not come out right.

bunglie i am so upset and sad for you. i read the story from the girl and am so sad.

i will have to post later as i am quite shook up. I am so sorry for my ignorance. i didn't know all of this, i haven't seen these posts. all the times we have spoken i didn't know all of this.

bye for now.

wanted to add that you have such strengh and courage.

Bungle,

I feel so very sad now....pls excuse my ignorance but what would happen if you did speak out and go public??

Is there any other way to do it....i didn't realise this could happen...I know there are some freelance journalists on MNet... Do you think you could ask them to write a generalised article in a paper...you know get some media interest in this??