MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

Hi, Bunglie - email received OK! Hotmail is fine to use now, instead of a measly 2MB they have gone mad and given us 250 so there's loads of space!

Happy to act as conduit for DVDs too.

Awen, my email address is holden_ jan at hotmail dot com (I've given it out on MN before) - do send me your postal address if you want to see the mama dvd

XXX

Can I say something cheery.. I saw ds in his first ever nativity!! He was adorable and cute and I am ever ever everso proud. HE was blowing kisses to me and all.

Thank you :) What is the MAMA dvd? Bunglie I dont feel especially brave tbh, but thank you for thinking that. I am also about the most disorganised person in the world!

Ds is alrady asking ot live with me. He thinks 'Mummy I could just stay here and visit daddy'. It is so hard fining the correct response for fear of being said to have put ideas in his head. Ds is learning dates of the month cos he counts to the nites he sees me again.

Bunglie, I actually feel lucky in a lot of ways as I read about stories like yours and at least I have contact. My thoughts really are with you because knowing the anguish I feel when not seeing him for a fortnight. You really are a brave lady.

Email sent Janh...don't worry
Only one to add...that is our very own SMof2.(all will be revealed, nothing sinister! )

Please if you would like to borrow the MAMA DVD then could you CAT Janh your home address and she will send you a copy and some stamps for the return postage, so we can keep some in circulation and hopefully oneday most of mumsnet will have seen it...but that is my Christmas wish.

IKNT-Did you get my email?
awaiting a letty from Cheesy and Spuddy...so will write their news as soon as I can....I am a Scrooge (Bah-Humbug) and hate phoning mobile phones unless it is an emergency as they are so expensive.

Awen - The Mama DVD is a film, with an extended interview with Roy Meadow and all the latest on Southall. It tells the story of 3 Families who 'lost' their children due to the False diagnosis of MSbP and is loosely based on the Mama site. It is a DVD in my opinion that every parent should see, but a IKNT says have a big box of tissues.

It is lovely to here you or write at least of the milestones that your ds is making. I bet you are so proud you want to burst!

If you were not disorganised I would be surprised, a young child,that you look after and two or three years of nurse training (sorry I have forgotten if you have started your 3rd year) and find me a mum who is orgainised....that is except my P.A. Janh and then she is just plain 'super Mum'...

Hi Bunglie. Finally saw the Real Story programme last night. at the system and the story of that poor mum. And the hubris of the paediatricians is unbelievable - that just because a child has a complaint they can't identify/explain they can make the logical leap from that onto diagnosing a psychiatric disorder on the part of the mothers. and how are paediatricians qualified to diagnose a psychiatric disorder FFS? it is just awful tho that it really is "guilty till proven innocent". just because that mum had PND and wasn't a good enough witness and missed a few doctors appointments, she was damned by the Family Courts.

One reason why I feel particular concern about diagnosis of MSBP for unexplained fits is that there was a girl at uni who had unexplained fits - so obviously it can happen without abuse being present.

One thing that did slightly confuse me in the programme tho - that although MSBP isn't included in the ICD classification of diseases, it is included in another system of classification of Psychiatric Disorders - the DSM IV - but bear in mind that the DSMIV also included homosexuality as being a psychiatric condition until 30 years ago!!!

Leigh Day & Co.

Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy : whose judgement of “significant harm”?

The purpose of this article is to consider the difficulties that can arise in a legal context when looking at the greater encroachment of public rights on the private sphere in decision-making when there is a suspicion that a child may be suffering significant harm (ill treatment or the impairment of health or development) attributable to his care, as defined in s.31 Children Act 1989.

Public Rights

We rightly recoil from the stark picture of the forgotten, neglected and abused child such as Victoria Climbie : her death a product both of criminal activity on the part of her carers and the failure of appropriate medical, local authority and education bodies to interact and recognise her situation in the family home.

In her case we recognise criminal punishment for her carers as appropriate and welcome an investigation of how she slipped through so many nets, to ensure such a failure on behalf of our society thus represented does not happen again. It is easy morally to legally condone the moves of all those involved in childcare decisions which result in the removal of the child from the home in such gross conditions.

In such circumstance one would expect the child to feel protected by such removal and whatever confusion arose as to identity as they grew up, to justify their new situation as a haven from the last.

Legal tests

The burden of proving that a child is suffering (or that it is likely to suffer) significant harm rests on the local authority; the standard of proof is the civil test of the balance of probabilities. The perpetrator of the “significant harm” identified by the local authority will however, be judged under the criminal test; beyond reasonable doubt.

Therein lies something of a legal conundrum for those examples of harm where no prosecution can follow because of insufficient evidence, and yet the local authority has chosen to pursue child care proceedings to deprive that child of his family – perhaps indefinitely – and to leave the family with the social stigma of causing harm – by that child’s very absence from it. At times, as we shall see, the family has not even had the opportunity to contribute equally to the legal debate, and as a consequence the balance of probabilities argument as put to the Court on the part of the local authority, is not part of a fair debate.

Individual legal rights

The Human Rights Act 1988, in incorporating Articles 3 ( not to suffer degrading treatment) 6 (right to a fair trial) and 8 (right to respect for private and family life) of the European Convention on Human Rights, has codified issues of the private and individual rights of the child and his family which are necessarily set against any legal interference by a public authority in the social function of that family. Whilst in child care proceedings the welfare of that child is always paramount, all legal decisions in those proceedings must now be taken with an integral consideration of the rights set up by Articles 3, 6 and 8 for both child and family: or those decisions may be legally flawed.

Medical evidence

In arguments concerning significant harm it may be essential for the local authority to make use of evidence from the medical profession to prove that harm. It may in fact be the medical profession whose views initiate a child care conference. It is for the Courts to weigh that evidence in the balance when coming to a conclusion about that child’s welfare.

In 1987 Dame Butler-Sloss, when reporting on the Cleveland child sex abuse scandal, warned of excessive reliance on expert medical opinion by local authorities in approaching the Courts for a child care Order. It is, of course, a difficult line to tread when one profession skilled in a particular area of knowledge, is seeking to influence another in its decision-making, but it is an ability to look at the family life of that child “in the round” that the Cleveland report was urging before any decisions are made about wrenching a child from that family.

The number of ongoing cases before the GMC concerning medical courtroom experts suggests that the lessons of Cleveland have not been learnt. At the end of March, one case that had been before the GMC led to a medical expert on so-called “temporary brittle bone disease” was stuck off for misleading the courts on the cause of harm to children in certain cases.

There are many areas of paediatric medicine about which clinicians themselves are divided in their opinion. Some of these areas involve illness in the child which is undetectable – or may be seen to have no physical cause, and which it may be suggested are in reality a fabricated illness on behalf of the parent/carer or a psychiatric illness in the child, pandered to by parent/carer whilst treated physically. Specific examples of this are the divergent views in the medical profession as to the aetiology of ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (viral or a psychiatric disorder) and the “diagnosis” of Munchausen’s Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP) in the parent (almost exclusively the mother) of a child whose illness is either said to be clinically non-existent (at least it is not diagnosable) or whose illness has been specifically caused by the parent.

Both a failure in a child suffering from ME/CFS to recover in a year or two, and the failure of a paediatrician to find a specific illness in a child whose parent seems to be over-anxious and is constantly requesting “tests” for a variety of illnesses have resulted in referrals under s. 47 Children Act 1989 to make an emergency child protection order, or failing that to call a child care conference. The local authority’s duty to investigate such a referral is unquestionable. How that investigation and subsequent decisions about child care applications are followed through is of paramount importance both to the child’s best interests and the rights of his family – for the consequences of a mistake could be psychologically traumatic for all concerned.

MSbP
MSbP is a condition in which mothers induce fabricated illness in their children – a lay person’s understanding of the “syndrome” being that the sick child allows the parent to assume the sick role by proxy, so that in the attention shown to the child in investigation of the illness the mother gains sympathy and attention which is what she craves. One might well ask who is the medical patient in this scenario. Recent law has set out that it is the child but where does that leave the rights of the parent1?

The first MSbP case was documented by Professor Sir Roy Meadows in 1977, and as definitions of the syndrome have developed the adopted view is that MSbP is a form of child abuse. Although accusatory of the “harming” parent it is a diagnosis to be made by a paediatrician in examination of his patient (the child) and not by a psychiatrist in examination of his patient (the adult). We therefore have a parent accused of a criminal act – harming or intending to harm their child as a result of an imprecise psychological disorder but for the purposes of child care proceedings there is no onus on the local authority to investigate the psychological state of the parent nor to prove whether or not that parent is suffering from the disorder.

There has been no legal argument in criminal trials that MSbP is in itself any form of Defence to criminal acts (as insanity, or other mental disorder might be), nor that those who are sufficiently ill to be separated from their children (possibly permanently) should only have this happen to them if there is incontrovertible evidence that they are suffering from such an illness. The problem for the local authority, the medical profession and ultimately the Family Courts is to ensure that the rights of those mothers under Articles 3, 6 and 8 Human Rights Act 1998 are not flagrantly trampled in acting upon the paediatrician’s “diagnosis”.

Once s.47 Children’s Act has triggered the gateway to action by the local authority under s.31, attributing harm to the parents, it is for the local authority to produce the balancing act of rights within the family. With MSbP this has proved difficult – but those rights all remain to be protected. Even if the child is the patient of the clinician, it is the whole family’s rights with which the local authority must be legally concerned albeit with the overriding objective of ensuring the child’s safety.

D-v- East Berkshire Community Health Trust [2003 EWCA Civ 1151]

Public policy was cited in this case as the reason for there being no common law duty of care to parents where consideration was given to whether suspicion of abuse could result in the removal of children from their family home. An acceptance of the encroachment of public rights on those of the individual. But they did not close the door on violations of Articles 3 or 8, nor could they.

Unfair trial : Article 6 for parent and child
It may be that the doctor has himself made a mistake in failing to recognise in a child some of the more difficult illnesses to diagnose, such as Asperger’s Syndrome, Dyslexia/Dyspraxia, Brittle Bone Disease, Hyper-acuity and Asthma. Yet, once child care proceedings have commenced the very nature of the MSbP diagnosis prevents a parent from providing evidence against such diagnosis. For, a crucial element of the diagnosis is that she will deny harming her child. There are circumstances where mothers are told that they have to “confess” to harming their child before they can have any form of treatment, and if they do not confess they are unlikely to have their children back. If they do then confess, such confession may be used as evidence against access to seeing their children or even to their children being placed for adoption. Such confession - which might of course lead in due course to criminal prosecution, is therefore, as the Countess of Mar declared in a debate in the House of Lords in December 2003 (following Angela Cannings’ successful appeal against conviction in a case concerning MSbP) 2, “ equivalent to the stigma of witchcraft in the Middle Ages; there is no trial, and no one is guilty until one can prove one is not guilty, and one has no way in which to prove one is not guilty”.

Conclusion
Complication again arises from the fact that these are civil cases and neither the guilt nor innocence of the mother is what the Family Court need consider in care proceedings. However, and particularly before acceding to any sort of Final Order or to adoption proceedings the context of the accusations is such that the Court must ensure that the family itself has had sufficient representation and evidence laid on their behalf. For it is as important not to harm the child by falsely accusing his mother of MSbP, thereby breaking up the family home, as it is to protect him from harm
In seeking to encroach still further on family life in an effort to provide each child with a life free from ill-treatment, it will be important to consider the Human Rights Act and its implications at all steps of decision-making – for the child as well as the parent and close consideration should be given to medical evidence where there is a severe imbalance between the voice allowed to the local authority and that allowed to the parent.

Frances Swaine is a Head of the Human Rights Department at Leigh Day & Co. She specialises in cases involving medical ethics and the impact of the Human Rights Act on health and community care services.

This article first appeared in the Solicitors' Journal.

Hi all, feeling a bit today.
Firstly any people who understand legaleese explain the following to me....I am sure it makes sense...but what I am not sure, my brain is only half there at the moment!

I am afraid that the DVD I sent to the 'person' sent it back unopened and told me to get my money back, as she had no way of playing it. I know she has a DVD player and if not she could have put it on her computer, the saying you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink, comes to mind.

Does anyone have any news on the couple in the Real Story as they went to court yesterday I think.....I hope and pray that they get their little girl back.

Articles from \link{http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1369583,00.html\the Guardian}, and from the \link{http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=14959650&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=mother-s--injustice--in-losing-her-child-name_page.html\Birmingham Post}.

Bunglie - remember that today is quite a significant anniversary, it was one year ago today that Angela Cannings had her appeal upheld by the Appeal Court. Compare the situation now, with then, and you'll see just how far along the line towards exposing the injustices which have been taking place we have come.

Thank you LunarSea...as ever you have the news!

I am glad for the parents but I have a voice in the back of my head that is telling me that they should not get their hopes up....I do not know why. Maybe it is because the Plaintiffs QC said that they hoped to have a permenant placement for the child by the end of January...it is almost as if they have ignored this latest ruling...or have I misread it?

I think I would stake my life on the fact that this mother does not have MSbP. It was acknowledged that she loved her child, but she was tried and convicted of attempted murder on no less than 4 ocassions....when she did nothing IMO.

Why do they give support to drug addicts and people with mental problems etc, and yet they will not support a mother accused of MSbP. I wonder why a child is more at risk from a mother who is addicted to heroin, and yet the social services provide support and help so these mothers can keep their babies.

This mother knows that if she is lucky enough to get her daughter back that her everynove will be watched, and because of that it will give her an added safeguard to show that she has no ever did anything to harm her child. I do not understand why the SS are working towards still placing the child for adoption.
I just hope and pray that they do not say what they said to me, and that is that my children had been seperated from me for 2 years and to rehabillitate them was harder than to place them for adoption.

The parents came from a 3rd world country but I doubt they expected to come to a country with 'secret courts' and no freedom of speech for those that have been through them.

You are of course right Lunarsea, just look at how things have changed in the last few months, I should be showing hope and realising that one day somebody will look back at this period of history and think of it, much as we do, when it came to sending children up chimneys to clean them. It almost seems to ridiculous to be true.

Actually, given that this case is already in the public eye, I think there would be such a lot of negative publicity if the child was adopted simply becasue of the length of seperation that they wouldn't dare to go through with it while thae case was unresolved. And I don't think any judge would actually grant an adoption order while the other case was pending anyway, given the current rash of publicity in cases like this.

LunarSea You are right as ever

Hi all

Hope you are all well..

Havent been around for a while as we've been moving house...
Bunglie I recieved your email, repied to it today..

take care and be safe all

This is a true story and really happened.
My mother was accused of having Munchausens-syndrome-by proxy. I am writing this to show how much this has hurt me and my family and how angry I am about them taking away the only person that had cared for me, loved me and I adore. She is my best friend and my Mum.

The story starts when I was in secondary school. One of the teachers asked me to go and see her, not thinking much about it because I knew I had not done anything wrong, I sat down. The chair was quite comfortable and I sat back and relaxed, after a while the teacher said “How are you getting on and how are things at home”? I thought for a minute, couldn’t think of anything and said “fine”, I did wonder if she was trying to butter me up for a job no one else wanted to do! I asked her why she was asking me this, expecting some sort of answer about school. It was then she dropped a bomb-shell, but at the time I did not really realize it, she said that there were some people to see me called social workers and there was a police officer too. I thought I knew why they were there because there had been some problems with drugs, and someone I knew had been accused of being given some and I assumed that they had come to ask me about that. I did not mind, I knew it was not true and I had nothing to hide. So I got up off the chair and went with the teacher into another office. I was shocked; I was expecting a social worker but not the police as well! When I sat down, this time the chair was not so comfy and I had a horrible feeling of butterflies in my stomach, like when you think something bad is going to happen and you are scared, but I thought I had nothing to hide and I had done nothing so I tried to ignore the feelings. “Do you know why we have come to talk to you” asked the social worker. “No” I said, well I did not know for sure why they were there. The next few minutes became a bit of a blur, because it was then that it seemed as if my whole world had ended, the social worker told me that I could not go home. I had to think about it for a while, let it sink in. the seconds seemed like minutes, but yes, she had said, I could not go home to my mum. In just 15 minutes my whole world had been changed and I did not understand why.

The social worker started asking me questions like, if I knew why they had come to the school. I said I could probably guess, as I thought it was about drugs. The social worker then told me I was not allowed to go home, as she finished her words, my world had ended; my life had been taken away from me, my right to decide upon anything in my life.

The social worker told me that she was taking me out of my mum’s care because they felt my mum was a danger to my brother and I. I just wanted to laugh with sarcasm at how wrong she was and inside I was thinking, my mum a DANGER, No way! I cried my heart out at that moment, and I felt as though I couldn’t breath, as if someone was holding a plastic bag over my head trying to suffocate me. I felt useless, I couldn’t say or do anything to change how they were thinking, I asked why they thought my mum was a danger to my brother and I. The social worker said that my mum was giving drugs to my brother that hadn’t been prescribed to him. I knew my mum would never do a thing like that, so I asked who had told her something as nasty as that, because they were liars. The social worker told me the doctor’s at the local hospital had told her this. I realised then they were never going to believe me over a doctor, but I knew one hundred percent that my mum would never do a thing like that, I told the social worker that the doctor’s were talking rubbish.

I told her they don’t know how to do their jobs correctly. I could tell by the look on their faces that they didn’t care what I felt or said. I felt as if my voice was talking to deaf people and we couldn’t communicate. I felt I was talking to a wall. The social worker and police officer said I was just sticking up for my mum, but what they didn’t understand was, if my mum was hurting my brother or I in any way, I would tell someone, and would do it immediately. That is what my mum taught us, the way she brought us up. The social worker said I had a right to my opinion, but they did not take any notice of it.

The police officer asked me if I had a place I could stay for a while, I said yes, MY HOME. I still felt like I couldn’t breathe. I was answering with an attitude and I didn’t care... I was told that my brother and I would be going into care, I was not happy about this at all. But words can not explain how I felt inside. I didn’t adapt well to change, and I didn’t like being moved around, and I was panicking and didn’t know what to do. No matter where we had lived my mother kept us in the same school because I hated change, sometimes having to drive 20miles to take me to school and 20miles to collect me again, how many other mothers would travel this distance to help a child feel comfortable and not disrupt their education.
The police officer asked me if it was ok if went into care, I thought to myself how stupid is this man? No its not ok, but I knew it would be useless to say anything as they had severe hearing difficulties! They kept telling me I would be alright, what did they know? They said it would only be for a short time and that I would be alright… how they could even try to tell me that, they didn’t know me or anything about me? They asked me for my Dad’s mobile telephone number, I gave it to them; they said they would ring him and ask if we could stay there for a while just for a few nights.

I thought to myself staying with my father could be worse than care, then again the social worker didn’t know my father either did she? I knew I couldn’t last long at my father’s house and could only stay there short term and definitely not long term. How would my brother cope with being there? He was used to lots of hugs and being loved even when he was naughty. I had stayed with my father for a short time before and it was a very bad experience.

The social worker told me that for one night my brother and I would have to go into care. The police officer asked me if I’d like to go with them while they told my brother, I said no, I knew I couldn’t be strong enough to watch the hurt in my brothers face at the thought of not going home, and definitely couldn’t watch him crying the pain would be more than I could bare. The teacher said I could stay with her until someone came to collect me. She then rang down to my class and asked if my best friend could sit with me while I waited and see if she could calm me down.

I just couldn’t stop crying. I was so upset I felt my life may as well have been over. I felt I just wanted to hit or throw something very hard. As soon as my friend arrived, the social worker and the police left. I fell into a fresh lot of tears and my friend just hugged me and told me to let it all out. I finally managed to tell her what had happened and she got pretty mad too, she had stayed at our home often over the years and knew my mum wouldn’t hurt a soul.

The social worker told me I couldn’t ring my mum and took my mobile phone of me, that made me so angry, what right did this woman have to take away my belongings. I would soon be sixteen and she was treating me as if I was in primary school. I had said I wouldn’t contact my mother but they still took my mobile phone away from me.

The teacher returned to the room after walking the police and social worker out, she asked us to come back to her room. I was still very upset and crying on and off, I was like this for a few hours, just crying every time I thought about not seeing my mum. It felt as if all the feelings inside me had gone, I was empty, I felt so alone.

The teacher and I had a long talk about my mum and my father and how I felt about them; she knew me well and knew that what I was saying came from my heart. When I told her how my mum was with us at home and how much we loved her, and hated even staying with friends when we had to sleep over, because we had to see my mum when we woke up in the mornings, it was the best feeling in the world waking in your own room and the first thing you see is your mum smiling at the very sight of you. My teacher knew how bad my father was with us as well, and how picky and nasty he could be, she knew he wasn’t a patient person and didn’t care about anything as long as he was alright and nothing disturbed his routine, or stopped him having what he wanted. If he hurt someone’s feelings to get what he wanted that was fine with him, he did not seem to care about anyone else.

At 3 pm I asked if I could go and speak to my boyfriend before he went home, I wanted to explain to him what had happened, and was told ‘no’ in case I ran away. I was angry at the lack of trust they were showing me as I had given my word. I was angry at what was going on and about everything, I was confused. My best friend said she would go and get my boyfriend for me. As soon as he arrived I burst into tears again at the thought of telling him and being forced to remember I wouldn’t be going home today. When I told him what was happening, like my best friend, he was shocked and angry as he also knew my mother quite well, and knew she was the nicest mum that anyone could have. He had often said I was lucky because I had a great mum who seemed to understand the problems of teenagers and listened to me when I talked to her. Both my boyfriend and best friend knew as did I, that my mother couldn’t do the things those horrid people were saying she had done. They both stayed with me until 4.30 pm when someone finally came to collect me. My friends had spent the time with me trying to make me smile and forget for a while the devastating things that had happened. I had calmed down a lot in while they were with me, although I still felt like I couldn’t breath, and it hurt so badly inside. I was still finding it difficult all the while, holding back the tears and trying not to cry again.

I was collected from the school at 5pm, they took me to a place I never wanted or expected in my life time to go to, foster care (hell!). The place I was taken to stay at was horrible, and quite a distance away, a long way from where my mum and my friends lived. By the time I arrived at the placement I was crying, but screaming inside, I was trying very hard to be brave and not let it show. I was there on my own as my brother had not yet arrived. The woman there seemed nice enough, but her house certainly wasn’t. The foster lady had an Irish name and she had a daughter who was 10 years old, whose name was also Irish. There were three dogs in the house that jumped all over my brother, (when he arrived later); one of the dogs even went to bite him! My brother had asthma so having to be with the dogs was not going to be very good for him. I couldn’t believe they were going to leave us here.

At 7.30pm I received a phone call from my mother, my brother still hadn’t arrived at the foster placement. The police and social worker had taken him to the local Hospital for blood tests and to check for bruising.

I could hear my mum on the phone trying to think positively and saying this was just one big mix up and I would be home in no time. I knew that she was holding in her tears, her voice was wavering now and then; she was trying not to cry. I told my mum I felt my whole life had been taken away from me, and she told me she understood exactly how I felt as she felt the same way. I was thinking to myself, while mum was talking to me, that for as long as I could hear her voice I would be alright, I wanted to stay talking to her for the whole time we were at this lady’s house. Both my mum and me were in a state of shock, and just couldn’t believe this was happening to our family. Then the words I was dreading finally came, my mum said she had better go and would call back later when my brother had arrived as well, and that we would chat again then.

It felt like the time would never pass and my brother was never going to arrive, I wanted them to hurry so my mum could call back. I felt a little stronger having spoken to my mum; she is my best friend and to me, everything.

At 8.15pm my brother arrived, he was just 9 years old. He told me where he had been and that he had been told mum was in hospital and ill, so hadn’t minded going with ‘those’ people. I told my brother the truth that mum wasn’t ill and was at home. My brother then started crying and was angry that he had been lied to; he wanted to go home if mum was there. He told me they had looked for bruises at the hospital, and we both said at the same time, ‘mum would never hurt us ever’? We were both angry at what they were doing to our family.

When mum called back my brother was crying so bad he couldn’t talk to her, and she told him that she would just talk to him and he could listen, and that it was alright to cry. As my mum spoke to him, my brother calmed down a little and managed to tell mum he loved her and couldn’t wait to be home, and he told my mum to tell these people that she hadn’t done anything, so he could come home. I cried some more and spoke with mum again. The pain inside me was so bad by now from my own hurt and watching the hurt in my brother, I wanted my life to end for the pain to be gone, for the day to be over or rewind, I was so confused about everything.

Nothing in my life seemed real anymore. As the evening wore on, my friends and my father called me which kept me occupied, all my friends were checking I was alright and offering me support. I finally went to bed at midnight and cried. I felt again like I couldn’t breath, it all hurt really badly, so bad I felt broken as if I would never mend. I didn’t sleep and at 6am got ready for school, then at 8.20am a taxi arrived to collect my brother and I for school. That day in school was the worst ever, people were asking me questions about what had happened the day before, and others were just being plain nasty and selfish about it all, and calling me ‘Orphan Girl’. I could normally just ignore them or say ‘get lost’ to people like that, but this day, I seemed to just cry like a big baby at there jibes. It was my boyfriend and two good friends who helped me get through the day.

The fair was in town and I had arranged earlier in the week to go with friends. My friend was supposed to be staying the night at my house (I rarely slept at friends, they normally slept over at our house), I had to telephone her to tell her she couldn’t stay and mum couldn’t be a ‘taxi’ for us that evening, it wasn’t easy telling my friend all this. After school that day I met her at the bus stop, where I got off the school bus. She lived just behind our house (I didn’t realise it was her mother that had gone to my brother’s school, and told them about my brother being given drugs.) I left my bag at my friends house and went around to see my mum, I told my friend that I’d be back in an hour. When I got to my mum’s home my Auntie and another of my mum’s friends were there. These were two people, who knew my mum really well, and almost as well as I did, they knew that she didn’t do the things this stupid doctor had said she did.

My mum was shocked, but so pleased to see me. She told me I wasn’t supposed to be there, and not allowed to see her till Monday. My mum not wanting to make things worse for our family and being the person she is, she called the social worker to let her know I was there. The social worker (I called her the ‘wicked witch of the east’) arrived with a detective constable police officer within ten minutes of the call. The social worker wanted to speak to mum and my Auntie alone first and later called me into the lounge to join them all. The social worker told me (not asked) to pack my belongings, I asked why I had to pack, and was told they were taking me to live with my father for a short time. I said no way was I going there or anywhere else, this was my home and this was where I was staying. They asked my mum to tell me to pack and leave. I guess they thought that my mum would assist them in their demands, by telling me I had to pack and leave. My mum refused saying she was never in this life time going to tell any of her children to leave their home, and she would never throw any of her children out for anyone. This was their call and they had to deal with it alone, and with no assistance from mum.

In the end I packed my belongings and left with them, my mum was very upset at the way they were speaking to me and treating me. She didn’t even get chance to give me a hug, they made sure they got in the way of her even doing that. Mum was so upset by it all she couldn’t even say goodbye to me. That was it, I wasn’t allowed to see her until Monday now, and that was a whole week-end without seeing her or talking with her, sharing things and talking with her, how would I get through the whole week-end?

The only words that came to my mind at that time were HATE and HELL. HATE for the people who were doing this to us and HELL because I had been taken from my mum and felt that was all I was living in now.

I had stayed with my father before, when my elder sister and I went to my grand-mother’s funeral. It was a bad, horrible and rotten experience then.

When I arrived at my father’s house, he said “welcome home”, I didn’t like that, because this wasn’t home, no way, no how, my home was with my mum. As soon as they had been dumped me at my father’s house, the police man and social worker left, without even a second glance back at us. I was still very, very upset and hurting inside still from what had happened to us. It felt as if they had taken something from inside me, something they could never give back, something that a lifetime could never heal. On the outside I looked fine, but on the inside it felt like something had died inside of me, as if there was no hope, no comfort, and no love in my world anymore. I felt as if I could never love or get close to another human being again, so I couldn’t be hurt like this again. I lost all trust in any authority figure. I swore to myself, at that moment in time that I would never have children of my own, so this horrid world couldn’t take from them what I didn’t have anymore.

I had to pretend now to be alright, or my father would have got angry, he was going to be angry enough having my brother in the house. So I went upstairs and washed my face, and got ready to go out again, and meet my friend.

My friends and I had arranged to meet in town and then go on to the fair. By the time I got to the meeting place, I was in the worst, bad mood, and shouldn’t have been around anyone as I wasn’t in the mood to be sociable. I was worried that I might take my bad mood out on the wrong people. As the night went on I calmed down again and even managed to forget for an hour or two the problems I had to return to. My boyfriend who lived to far away to meet up with us to go to the fair, called me to see how I was doing, and reassure me everything was going to be alright. I felt a little better having spoken to him again. My friend and I walked back to town and got a taxi home, well she went home I went to my father’s house. I finally got to bed at 1am and thankfully slept. I awoke at 11am the following morning to the harsh reality that I was not in my own room and wasn’t going to see my mum, I began to cry again and the feeling that I couldn’t breathe had returned. I got up, dressed, and straight off out to meet my boyfriend, and a few other friends. My day went alright and I had to try really hard not to think about my mum and how badly I missed her, or my messed up life. My friends tried to make sure I didn’t have time to think of things and made it an alright day.

It is now the middle of July and it has been a month now since I was taken from school that horrible day. In the month that has passed I have not seen one glimmer of hope that my brother and I will ever be returned home to mum, and my life has got far worse, since this nightmare began. I am told all the time now that I have a ‘bad attitude’ about everything, and always seem angry. I always seem to be fighting with my friends and taking my constant very bad mood out on them. It is getting harder and harder to talk to my boyfriend, and I hate many things now, a feeling that was unknown to me while in my mum’s care.

I find life way to hard now and I miss my mum terribly. I seem to be constantly locked out at my father’s house, and not allowed a key, I seem to be being told off all the time, and although a month has passed my brother still cries a lot for mum and so do I. I seem to have lost the ability to know how or what to feel at different times, my head is still so mixed up. The social workers we see try to tell my brother and I that my mum has an illness in her head that we can’t see and this could make her hurt us, but I will never believe them. I have lived with my mum my whole life and she has never, not once, ever hurt us in anyway. I feel so hurt all the time inside and just get so angry at everyone. I’ve cried so much the tears are all dried up, and when I get sad and need to cry I can’t anymore and just end up hurting myself. I’m exhausted emotionally. I can’t describe my feelings anymore as they don’t make sense and are all over the place these days. My boyfriend and I finished after dating for 6 months, because I seemed to be fighting with him all the time because I’m so angry now at everything, and my heart still hurts too much to deal with anything else. I hated everything in my life nothing seemed good about it at all now. I longed to go back to my old life and my old self.

I feel at times like I don’t care about anyone any more, and no one except my mum cares about me or my feelings. No matter what I say, I’m just accused of mirroring my mother or defending her, and told all the time by the social workers even abused children will want to go back home and will always defend their parents. How wrong they are. I never defend my father because he is cruel to us and hurt’s us, but who are we to say? I’m told I say that because my mother said it and so we are not believed.

I used to love school and wanted to be there no matter what, now I hate the place and dread each day I have to be there. I hate waking up in the mornings and hate facing each day, I hate everything.
Each new day I hope and I pray that one day my life will get better.

It is now November, and my mum will soon be going overseas, my brother and I told her to go, and told her we would follow as soon as we could or she could come get us as soon as we were allowed to leave the UK.
My brother and my life are no better, I was thrown out of my father’s house by him, and mum arranged for me to live with my Aunt. I was told I could live with my mum again but couldn’t go out of the country as I was still on the protection register; I wouldn’t have gone without my brother anyway. I couldn’t leave him here alone.

I asked the social workers not to put a care order on me as I was 16 years old now. I wrote to the Judge asking the same thing, and telling him my mum had nothing wrong to us when we lived with her. I told the Judge I wanted to live with her again, and hoped one day that would be possible.

It has been 5 months now since we were taken and it feels like 5years.
I can truly say now 100% I have no belief in God, or he would never have let this happen to our family. I’m strong and I know I’ll get through this although it’s very hard. I will be speaking to my mum 2-3 times a week when she abroad, which is more than she and I were allowed to do when she was here in the UK, so I look forward to that.

It’s Sunday and it will be December in a few days, and my mum left for another country today, I feel the same as I did that horrid day they took me away from her, and I miss my mum terribly, but I’m doing alright. School is a little better now, and I live with my Aunt, and take my brother out every Saturday, I was given once a week access with him. I tell him all the time both mum and I love him very, very much. Mum bought my brother and I a new mobile phone before she left as she knew my father would complain if she called the house phone to speak with my brother. He thinks if my brother is receiving a call he will miss a call that could earn him some money.

My brother and I wait for the time we can join our mother overseas.
Mum is the best.

Firstly, Hello IKNT, I hope that things are going well for you and thank you for the email.

I realise that the previous posting is very long. But I hope that when you have time you will read it. Perhaps you may like to share it with your children IKNT, as I am sure that your children can associate with some of it. I know that I can associate with much, but I am not sure about my own children, I wish I was.

The following is a story posted to me by a child whose mother was accused of having MSbP, and how she felt at being removed from her mother's care.

I think that we often focus on ourselves, as Mothers accused of having MSbP as being the vitims, but this is obviously not the case.

The young girl who wrote the following, wrote it so that people can see how it can affect the children as well as the adults and I think she is very brave to put her thoughts down, for us all to read like this.

I am posting it to help keep the persons anonymity, as the mother is obviously not allowed to tell her story and the 'children' can not be identified.

The only thing that I have to add is that it made me cry, it made me realise that it is selfish to think that it does not affect our children and I hope that the the person who wrote this can oneday live with her mum again.

As I said I know it is long, so read it when you have time, but do try to read it.

Finally I would like to add that not all Foster Parents or Adoptive Parents treat the children they take into their homes in any way other than that which they would treat a child of their own. It is sad that so many 'placements do breakdown, but I feel this is probably due to the fact that unless their is real danger for that child and abuse does exist, and it does, that the best place for a child is with its nayural parents. If this can not be the case I would like to thank all the selfless people who take our children into their families and give them the care that we so desperately want to give.

I would be interested to know why people thought that so many placements do break down and what can be done to prevent this.

I would just like to add....sorry, but when this was written the 'daughters' mother WAS 'Overseas', She now has a home and can communicate with her son and daughter. I did not want to change 'her' wording too much,as it was her story. However, I feel that it would be misleading if you felt that the Mother left the country, leaving her children here in the UK. This is not the case.

I should have re-read it before posting...and checked my spelling....

Bunglie..
I was brought up in the care system and all my placements broke down because I tested the waters and boundries, to far in most cases, and in my opinion the families just didnt have the patients or the time to tolerate the honeymoon period when I was placed in their care..

I now foster children myself, mostly long term placements, I have 2 boys in my care at the moment and they have been with me for 18mnths and will be with me till they are 16. (one has ADHD and on is interlecually challanged so they are hard to place children...) I have all the time in the world for them... Its hard and I often need a break, but they have no one else...

I so hope from the story posted all goes well for the children and others that may read this story, hopefully it will help the older children in the same position to understand a little...
here's hoping your children get to maybe read this and share some understanding...

take care and be safe all

good for you innkogneetoe,nice to see another foster carer here,mine are teens in long tme care as well as short term and its not an easy job at times so weel done

WOW! IKNT I did not realise...well done. You too Fostermum.

I want to repeat my earlier posting, as I feel it may have 'got lost' and I think that the care system has had so many knocks I want you all to know that we do appreciate what you do.

I would like to add that not all Foster Parents or Adoptive Parents treat the children they take into their homes in any way other than that which they would treat a child of their own. It is sad that so many 'placements do breakdown, but I feel this is probably due to the fact that unless their is real danger for that child and abuse does exist, and it does, that the best place for a child is with its nayural parents. If this can not be the case I would like to thank all the selfless people who take our children into their families and give them the care that we so desperately want to give.

Despite what many people say, I do not believe that it is for the money

lol if i did it for money i would be a mug,i had one lad that done £3.ooo damage to the house,while high on drugs that never got paid for it has to be covered by our insurance

OOOh! Fostermum.....You must be a very special person, I wish that there were more like you.

I often think that the best thing you can give a child is love and Security. As IKNT says most of these children do not know who to trust etc...so they will push you to the limit...test you....but I think I can understand that as everybody needs to feel loved and wanted....if you can give this to a child then you are giving it a wonderful gift.

The only thing I would ask of you is, please do not 'run down' the childs natural parents. You are giving them the stability that they need at the moment and if they want to know more they can read their files (when 18), but you do not know if what you have been told by the SW is true, it probably is, but in some instances children need to hang onto dreams about their parents and I know my dd has been told I tried to harm her, but she has not been told that she was conceived and brought up with love. I hope oneday she will find the truth, but in the meantime I am glad that there are Fostermums who care, and give the love that we are prevented from shareing with our children.
Thank you

Just wanted to say Bunglie, I dont get paid as such or recieve added expenses (transport costs for Dr app's..sometimes miles away) for the 2 boys in my care, they have their family allowance, I recieve a carer payment (of sorts) instead of working full time so I can be at home to care for these 2 boys, (one 11 and one 8 but interlectually 3) all other costs are to us.. Both boys love their mums very much but the mums cant cope with the problems these children have... they cause a lot of damage to my home too, mostly their bedrooms when sent there on a calm down period or "time out" (and im now over insured lol).... the 11yr old once kicked my car door open causing thousands of pounds worth of damage to the car parked beside us.. he was just afraid of going into the shopping centre at the time as he had never done this before and didnt want to get out of the car. I fully understand where you'r comming from fostermum!!! And we know its not about the money.. My son said a while back "mum you know im the youngest in the family and the older ones have moved out now, so why arnt I an only child now" lol.... He giggles and says he wouldnt have his family life any other way..

I think both boys who are with me at the moment will need care beyond 16-18 so I expect they will be with me longer...
one boy I had in my care at 14 till 18 with ADHD is now almost 22 and still vists me with his girlfriend and still calls me mum.... Bless his cotton socks

So fostermum well done and big pat on the back for you, keep up the good work, and stay strong for the children that need us all....
as hard as these children are to care for, I wouldnt have them any other way......They are who they are..

So to all good forster families out there...
WELL DONE, and a VERY, VERY happy christmas to you all.....!!!!!
Take care and be safe

IKNT - You never fail to amaze me....

I would love to know if anyone has had time to read the story posted below, by a a yong girl written about what happened to her after her mum was accused of MSbP.(11th December at 5.47pm).

I really do think that we forget the affect it has on the children.

I would like to make a request of everyone this Christmas....but I will do it nearer the time, but in the meantime please try and read the story sent to me...I was very touched by it and I believe...although am not certain that their is no copyright, (apart from Mumsnet) so I think if you wanted to copy it for others if you CAT Janh she will send me your request....I just want as many people this Christmas to realise...that Christmas is for families...not all families can be together and for those that can not I do not want them to give up hope as I have done, so many times this year.

Christmas is going to be hard for us all, but you all help us, even Cheesy and Spuddy who don't post....no access...more about them later! I print off the thread and post it to them.

I have asked so much of you all already...but to be able to keep supporting a cause that seems to be 'stagnant' at the moment must be hard. But please think of it as helping us, the 'lost mums' you have got to know and the 'lost children' in the hope that they will one day find their way back home and if not at least we know that there are some people who will care for them and love them where we can not.

It sounds odd, but you have nightmares of your child crying and wanting comforting and no one there....but to know that someone like IKNT and Fostermum, not forgetting MaryZ, is a comfort to me and therefore I hope a comfort to the other mums.

Finally if anyone would like to borrow the MAMA Video could you CAT Janh, or email her.....

hi bunglie, about your point about birth familys i try never to comment in a negative way,as this family is part of the child so would be like running the child down, have had the oppisit with a child we where gonna adopt(all on feeling so low thread)we loved him and thought of him as our own, he was an orphan as far as parents where concerned then one day a step cousin by marraige moved into the village,hadnt wanted him when parents dead, this person got him into drugs and crime,when it came to it he choose him over us,coz he was "family" we still love the child and keep in contact each week,cousin long gone,child moved into assisted accomidation, but it still hurt like hell.we cant ask for anything back as foster parents but after long time we feel the pain of loosing the child to

Hello Bunglie, sorry I didn't reply sooner - been busy, very busy- inlaws visiting from afar, family get togethers etc, and it still all goes on!!!
My dd has been given two dates??? January 27th and February 8th, she says it can't be the latter date as that would make her 10 months - so we are all betting on mid January.
DD has gotten huge this month, wasn't very big before, but all belly now - and she is looking forward to meeting her baby daughter.
Everything is now ready for the baby except the pram - dd thought she'd wait for the January sales - I will let you know how everything goes with the baby...
Christmas is almost here - the commercial side is doing my head in, but the family - friends - and childhood memories side of it is great.
Best wishes to everyone for christmas and the new year- sobeit

I have heard that the child has been freed for adioption....in last weeks real Story programme....can anybody confirm this?

I wish I could pull myself out of the doldrums, but I can't....I have cancelled Christmas as I can't bare the thought of it this year....I know I am being selfish but I hope I can celebrate next year.

I have no right to feel the way I do if the above is true and the couple lost their appeal. I only wanted my children to know the truth and the result is that the AP's have lied and I am having to wait until my dd is 18 before I can contact her...but she will have been indoctrinated by then by their lies.

If only they realised if they let me tell them the truth, let them judge me for who I am and get to know me, that they are adults and can make up their own minds. Then they have nothing to be afraid of...but for as long as they deny the truth, they force me to take legal action to proove that I am not telling lies.

What saddens me more is that it is still happening.....do people really believe that we are guilty?

I guess I am having a wallow in self-pity day, something I have no right to do...but I do wonder if the world and my children really do want the truth? Is it just the AP's who are scared of me...if so why?

The person who said The truth will set you free was never accused of MSbP or went through the British family courts.

I guess I am in trouble for writing this, but after a night of not sleeping, crying with fear that my dd will grow up never knowing the truth, I really do not care. I can not be hurt by the AP's anymore and they do not answer our letters, so if they are reading this then I hope that they realise just how their actions are forcing us to react to them in order to tell our children the truth.

I think it was Newton who said that 'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'.