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MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

358 replies

Bunglie · 16/10/2004 12:22

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

OP posts:
Bunglie · 01/12/2004 15:08

OOPS! Sorry Bunglie made a Bungle!

The Real Story is on next Monday at 7.30pm
Sorry, but I have been told that it is worth watching....
I feel awful for getting it wrong, but I did not read the message I got properly until I tried to watch it last night!

I hope you will forgive me and try and watch it on Monday. I understand that Johns Sweeny is a Journalist, I think that he works for the Telegraph, but maybe wrong, but he has been interested in MSbP and false allegations for a while, so I think that it should be good viewing. I have read a couple of his articles and they were very well balanced, so I would be interested to know what you think of this programme.

I will try and post a reminder on the right day this time, on Monday.

Very sorry from a very embarrassed Bunglie

OP posts:
midnightmass · 01/12/2004 15:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 01/12/2004 15:27

Midnightmass....I am ordering a whole load now!
They can be ordered direct from the MAMA site...link below...but I will order one for you, consider it a christmas pressie.....
Anyone who would like to borrow a copy I will be in a position I hope soon to send you one....When I order3d 2 before they came withinn 3 weeks and were very reasonable if you ordered one you got one half price....so I am ordering a bulk lot for my Xmas pressies to certain people and I want to keep a copy for each of my children obviously!
More news soon..........

OP posts:
midnightmass · 01/12/2004 17:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 02/12/2004 13:22

Midnightmass...consider it done.....
After all I can not give you a thermos jug for Christmas

OP posts:
Bunglie · 02/12/2004 14:12

This Bunglie is feeling really upset. I have had yet another letter from the adoption agency. It seems that they send a copy of it to the AP's and it is nothing but to discredit me. It is unkind. untrue and very hurtful. I now realise why the AP's are so anti me...they are covering their own back. Thjey stated I agreed to the adoption of my children and I know that I never did, but I have asked for a copy of the document I am supposed to sign but to no avail....I think that they should leave me alone...why are they so worried my dd will soon be 18 and nothing to do with them either.
Why do people seem to spend their lives hurting others needlesly
I know the truth and much more of this and I will go public and yell from the roof tops and I don't care if they put me in prison. I have done nothing wrong....so why do they want me to feel guilty.

OP posts:
WigWamBacofoil · 02/12/2004 14:58

Bunglie, I wish I could do something other than send you hugs. You have nothing to feel guilty about, and you'll soon be able to let the people who really matter - your children - know the truth.

FeastofStevenmom · 02/12/2004 23:39

Hi Bunglie. Sorry you are feeling so . I think that there seems to be a really awful conflict of interest due to AM's involvement with the adoption agency - so heaven only knows what goes on behind the scenes. I think the reason they are doing this is because your DD is 18 so soon - sort of a last stab attempt at justifying themselves/scaring you off. just don't know what to say, other than offer lots of [hugs]

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 03/12/2004 16:01

I think this Bunglie needs a good cry.

I have had just about all I can take at the moment and when you do not feel 100% it is even harder to cope sometimes. I consider myself to be a strong person on the whole but I do not know how much more I can take.

I wonder if I went public would it stop them all....and would my children then know the truth and judge me for who I am? If that were the case I would gladly go to prison for breaking the court order.

WigWamBam · 03/12/2004 16:13

Oh, Bunglie, I really feel for you. There's nothing I can say that can make you feel any better, but I can send hugs and I'm thinking of you. Please don't do anything that you might regret. I can't imagine how you feel, but I do know what a strong and inspiring person you are to have come through all of the things you have come through. Your time will come, your children will know the truth. You've been through so much to get this far, don't throw it all away now.

FeastofStevenmom · 03/12/2004 16:41

Sorry you are feeling so blue. My feeling is that when you are feeling down/vulnerable is a very bad time to go public in anyway - I think that if you do decide to go down that road, that you will need to be feeling stronger in yourself. i just don't think that you are dealing with reasonable people - i think as people have said before you are dealing with people who have a vested interest in painting themselves as the innocent party and you as the guilty party; if they feel threatened I suspect that they will retreat into that belief even more strongly if that makes sense.

Once both your children are 18 that will make things a lot easier in terms of access - and then you can think about how to ease your children into the truth.

best of luck whatever you decide to do

sobeit · 04/12/2004 12:21

Dear Bunglie,

just to let you know that everything you are doing is so worth while - look how many people you are reaching with this news, but I know it must be terribly frustrating for you - you have put your own feelings aside to help others - and I can feel your sorrow in my heart.

This time of year is difficult because everyone is getting ready for christmas celebrations, so everything goes on hold - I know I won't be able to reach out to others now until the new year - but because of you others are going to get the facts and learn more about the situation of yourself and others.

We are thinking of you a lot here and want you to know that we do care and will not forget one bit of what is happening. Big Hugs - sobeit

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 04/12/2004 14:17

You are od course all right. I was angry. I felt how could I fight a system that is now saying it was a 'verbal' agreement evertime I ask for proof.
I just felt that If I can not prrove myself as being truthful and right then what have I to loose. I guess the fact is that I am not going to be 'around' for ever and I do want my dd to know the truth, as well as my ds. I feel as if I don't tell them then who will and I have spent so long protecting them that perhaps it is time for the truth to be heard as I have hidden behind others.

As I said I wrote it out of frustration and anger...I just so badly want them to know the truth.

I have ordered some more DVD's so I will be in a position to lend them out as promised but they queeried my order in case I had submitted my form 3 times by mistake, which was nice of them. Today I checked my emails and found this....

"I am sorry to hear about your painful situation and hope that by working to save others in the name of justice that you will find some solace.

I sent off seven copies of the film along with a VHS tape of the last film that Nonny and I did together. I hope that the tape will play in your VCR as it is an American standard.
We hope to get a wider audience for our film so are working to promote it everywhere we can. Thus, we will make the film available for a long time to come.

I wish you strength and very much appreciate your kind words about the film and your determination to spread the message."

It cheered me up no end and so if you would like to borrow a DVD just ask! I have asked them about the copywrite laws and lending them for no charge, just to make sure it is alright.

Don't panic...no thermos jug for you for Christmas 'Midnightmass!'

LunarSeasonsGreetings · 06/12/2004 12:51

Bunglie - I know it doesn't help you, but little by little the truth is dribbling out into the open - like this from the Evening Standard last week:

Fresh hope for women jailed for killing their children

SIX mothers jailed for killing their babies have been given new hope of release from prison, the Evening Standard can reveal.

The women, who have each served up to 10 years, have had their details sent to the body that examines possible miscarriages of justice to decide if the convictions could be "unsafe".

Sources say one of the cases being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission is that of Donna Anthony, who was jailed for life six years ago for the murders of her two children aged 11 months and four months.

All six cases - which could be sent back to the Court of Appeal - hinge on expert evidence that has been brought under scrutiny after a series of murder trials involving infant deaths.

It is the first time the commission has been able to consider the cases of parents convicted of killing a child without there being new evidence or new issues that might lead to a fresh appeal.The six applications were a result of a Court of Appeal judgment earlier this year, which quashed Angela Cannings's conviction for killing two of her children and suggested some guilty verdicts may have been based on unreliable expert evidence.

The three Appeal Court judges dismissed medical expert Professor Sir Roy Meadow's "law" on cot deaths that "one in a family is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder".

Sir Roy's discredited theories were the basis for the cases against two other mothers, Sally Clark and Trupti Patel, who were also later cleared.

After the Cannings judgment, Attorney General Lord Goldsmith ordered a review of 258 similar cases where a parent was convicted of killing a child under the age of two in the past 10 years.

Twenty-eight cases were identified by Lord Goldsmith, who wrote to each one to tell them they had an opportunity to apply to the CCRC to investigate whether the convictions were "unsafe".

The CCRC confirmed it is considering six cases.

Chairman Professor Graham Zellick, said: "Our main job is to review the cases of those who feel they have been wrongly convicted of criminal offences, or unfairly sentenced. We do not consider innocence or guilt, but whether there is new evidence or argument that may cast doubt on the safety of an original decision.

"The new legal ruling about infant death has allowed us for the first time to consider cases where the conviction was made on the basis of medical expert opinion."

THE CRUCIAL CASES

THE three cases of Sally Clark, Trupti Patel and Angela Cannings changed the way the courts now view baby deaths.

All had their convictions for murdering their children quashed.

Solicitor Mrs Clark (pictured on the left) was convicted of killing two of her children on Sir Roy Meadow's evidence.

But she was allowed to appeal because fresh medical evidence cast doubt on post mortem findings. It was revealed that results of some laboratory tests were not passed on by an important witness, so lawyers on both sides were unaware of their significance.

Pharmacist Trupti Patel (pictured centre) was acquitted of murdering her three babies after her trial heard "Meadow's Law" was flawed. Shop assistant Mrs Cannings, from Salisbury (pictured right) had her conviction for killing two of her children quashed.

The Appeal Court overturned a jury's verdict she smothered seven-week-old Jason in 1991 and 18-week-old Matthew in 1999.

Mrs Cannings, 40, insisted the babies were victims of cot death, as her first child, Gemma, had been at the age of 13 weeks in 1989.

====
11/29/2004 06:22:00 PM EST -- EVENING STANDARD

'Every day prisoners call me a baby-killing bitch'

DONNA ANTHONY was just 22 when toddler Jordan suddenly stopped breathing in February 1996.

She had suffered respiratory attacks before, but on this occasion Ms Anthony could not revive her 11-month-old daughter, despite giving mouth-to-mouth. A postmortem proved inconclusive and the coroner ruled it was a cot death.

Then, a year later, her four-monthold son Michael, who had been released from hospital hours earlier, also stopped breathing.

Doctors restarted his heart but he had brain damage and Ms Anthony and husband Dean agreed to have his life-support system switched off.

Finally, in 1998, after a police inquiry based on little hard evidence and assisted by Sir Roy Meadow, Ms Anthony was found guilty of murdering her children and sentenced to life in prison.

The jury heard a button was found in Jordan's stomach. Sir Roy was asked if the child could have choked on it. His reply: "Accidental ingestion of foreign bodies, so common in older toddlers and children, is really rare under the age of one year." Studies have since shown youngsters of a similar age to Jordan are quite capable of picking up objects.

Sir Roy said the odds against two natural cot deaths were a million to one.

The case is given priority by the review commission. Ms Anthony, now 30 and in Durham Prison, said: "They call me a babykilling bitch every day. But I didn't kill my children - I loved them."

====

I'm amazed that last case got taken seriously -whatever did they do, manage to select a jury which didn't include any parents? I bet loads of us here had babies who well able to pick things up at the age of 11 months. I know I certainly did.

As far as going public is concerned - can you find out if anyone has actaully been taken back to court for speaking out about they consider to be a miscarriage of justice? There have been so many media reports telling the stories, while not actually revealing identities, that I'm sure we'd have heard if these people were being prosecuted for it.

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 06/12/2004 14:15

Thanks LunaSeasonsGreatings,

I feel incredibly lucky not to be in the same position as these women, in prison for a murder I did not commit. However I must stress my dd did not die. I was charged with child cruelty amongst other things, but I knew that I did nothing wrong and I want her to know so very badly that I would never have done anything to hurt her.
Now she will soon be 18, I am aware that my contact with her has gone, so I have to make contact with her after her 18th birthday. I am so frightened that after all the nastyness that has gone on in the last few months that she will not want to know me. She may well believe what the 'letter for life' that she was given early said and I may never get the chance to let her see the papers, and learn the truth.
I think I am so emotional because it is soon going to be Christmas and she will soon be 18. I have spent a lot of my life imagining my dd's 18th birthday party and more than that her wedding. But I do not really know her. I do not know if she has a boyfriend, what her favourite food or colour is. I want to get to know her before it is too late. Does that sound silly and selfish. I had thought perhaps I was being selfish because of the trauma that the truth is obviously going to cause her. I do not want to hurt her emotionally and is my wanting her to know the truth just me being selfish? There are so many questions and I do not know the answers.

What I do know is that the diagnosis MSbP has to stop. People have to realise that although child abuse does exist, they should call it whatever it is, like smothering, poisoning etc, not hide behind some syndrome invented by a doctor who does not even bother to interview the parents because he says (in the DVD) that they will lie!

There is no definite diagnosis for this syndrome, and there is no defence. anything you do can and will be used against you and you can not win. Is there any other illness like this?
Worse still it is a stigma that is with you for the rest of your life. I can never work with children or in certain jobs, but I do not have a criminal record. I can honestly say I have never knowingly broken the law or and yet I am treated as if I am a criminal. I can not ever proove my innocense, even if a judge overturned the Judgment I would still be the only person better off, as I am sure they would say it was overturned on a 'technicality' and it would not alter my ability to work with children etc. Somehow it does not seem fair.

I am sure that the 'truth will out' and as to whether I am proactive in this I am afraid I can not put here as the AP's amonst others read it. However, I feel that whatever I do it must be done with the best intertests of my children at heart and not done out of malice, as that makes me no better than the man who labelled me.
I need to get my bearings and sort out what I can do and what needs to be done and then perhaps move on from there.
Again I apologise for my little whinge, I was feeling sorry for myself and this is something I have no right to do when there are people in prison for crimes they did not commit due to these men.
Where did our legal sysytem go wrong? Sad

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 06/12/2004 14:20

Yes...she is off again Wink
Sorry my last posting was soooooo long!
Secondly I forget to tell you that I only ordered 6 DVD's and they are sending me 7, but the very nice email I got was from someone called Amy Sommer, If you watch the DVD you will know her story. She is doing something constructive now despite having more than one of her children taken away at birth having been accused of MSbP.
A Strong woman in my opinion and I wish her a very Merry Christmas and a happy 2005. I hope that she too can find peace one day.

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 06/12/2004 16:04

Please try and watch Real Story at 7.30pm tonight.(BBC ONE)
It is by John Sweeny and his investigation into MSbP.

I hope I have the date right this time. Smile

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 06/12/2004 20:14

Did anybody watch it?
If anything it shows how unjust the Family Courts are.
You can't be identified in anyway, not even as to where you live.
Your child is a 'letter' not a child who you love and have nursed.
It showed how easy it was to label a woman as a 4 times attempted murderess....I hope and pray that with the new evidence that the BBC has sought out from Bangladesh that she may have a happy ending to her story.
It showed parts of the interview with Sir Roy Meadow, with Nonny de Plume, for her film MAMA. If anybody would like to borrow this DVD I will gladly lend it (when it arrives!) but it has an extended interview with Meadow's on it and an interview with Southall.

I wish I believed that this half hour programme that I could hardly watch due to the tears running down my face, as it reminded me so much of what happened to me, alters the publics perception on MSbP or FII as they are now calling it.

It was interesting to discover that MSbP does not exist in a disctionary of diseases, not even in the psychiatric section. So why do the courts believe that it does exist.

It is time that there is a full public and open enquirey in this Bunglies opinion.

sobeit · 07/12/2004 00:03

Darn it, I missed it. Mind you having watched the mama dvd and reading all the articles I have read lately- I am left with the impression that some serious stuff is going to be happening in the near future... No way can those professors get away with what they have done to so many families and children - No way! Bunglie, I have learned so much from you and all the others on this web site - shame that so many are left suffering... I will do all I can in the new year to raise awareness - even if it means I can only loan out my copy of the mama dvd and let others know about the press and programmes that come up.
Wishing you all the best. Sobeit

Awenamanger · 07/12/2004 01:30

Bunglie - i am sorry you have been having a hard time xx

The programme can be watched on line for those who missed it
www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/real_story/latest.ram

Santasluckylittlehelper · 07/12/2004 08:42

I watched it Bunglie and wept for her, for you and all the other mothers. It made me angry and frustrated that you could be condemned in this way without a 'proper' hearing. I hope she gets the good result she deserves on Wednesday and that you get there too Bunglie. X

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 07/12/2004 13:49

Thank you all. I hope that she gets a good result tomorrow, and I for one will have her and her husband in my thoughts for most of the day.

Watching that programme brought back so many memories. I am sure it was the court that I was in. but then I guess apart from 'The Presidents' court, they are all very much the same.

I found that last night I could not sleep. All sorts of ridiculous ideas went through my mind, but sanity did at last prevail. I realise now that to go 'public' would be wrong. So far I have never broken the law. I have done everything that was asked of me and more and I have been honest to a fault. When I say 'a fault' I mean that, because had I not been so open and honest with the AP's then they would have had no idea I wanted to try and stop my dd from getting the letter. They would not therefore have had cause to give it to her early and maybe, but only maybe things might have been different. Relationships between me and the AP's have broken down because I was honest with them and told them I wanted to tell the children the truth. I could go on, but I can see that I should have kept quiet. I may not be in the position I am today, but I know that one day my dd will want to know the truth and I will make certain that she finds it out.
I have a a video record of TV reports and programmes and as many newspaper clippings that I can find, so she can see that it is not just me telling her something, but that this man did something wrong. He took facts and twisted them, he lied and he took away my children. I will never know if I could have been a good mother, my own mother says that the children were better off being adopted, and that they have had opportunitites that I could never have given them. I will never know.
What I do know is that there are two young people, emerging into adulthood and they are going to have a hard enough time as it is. I do not want to add to that, but I feel that I have a right to get to know my children, and they have a right to get to know me and judge me for who I am. I think that the more people try and prevent them from seeing their parents, the more they will question why. I hope that if they are reading this that they realise that I am fully aware of all that they have said about me and how I do not know "fact from fiction". How I am a "compulsive liar" etc. I will leave them with one thought. Who is lying to the children now, not me.
I now believe that truth will prevail, but when I do not know, but I thank you all again for your support over the last year. I also ask that as soon as anyone has any news about child 'U' and the court case mentioned yesterday that they post it.
With love to you all.

PS. Sobeit, has your dd thought of any names yet....and despite what Beetroot (Midnightmass) says the 19th is far better than the 18th.....would it be her birthday me thinks? Do you have a due date and we can then all have a guess?
Mine is 3am on 19th Jan
Beetroot is 18th of January....she was never good at time keeping Wink

Awenamanger · 07/12/2004 14:58

I have now emailed 'real story' with brief details of mine. Seeing how they conducted the programme and understanding the anonimity that family courts have I felt a little braver to do so..

I wonder what I will do if they respond.

Ds is fine btw. Had him for weekend all ok except when xp arrived ds didnt want to even come downstairs.

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 07/12/2004 15:12

Awe! Aweninamanger (love the Christmas name!) How sad for you. Your Ds knows you are his Mummy and one day, soon I hope he will be old enough to say what he wants and then perhaps you can see him more. I think you are a very brave person as I know how difficult I found it leaving my children and yet you do it repeatedly. Your ds will one day be very proud of his mummy.

I looked at the website address they gave at the end of the programme but did not have the courage to email and found the address that they had were not much use.....but if you do get a reply please let us know.

Have you seen the MAMA DVD? If not if you CAT you address to Janh I shall send it to her with the postage, and wrapped up etc for her to forward it to you, so she only has to write your address on it and post it.....then if you could post it back to her when you have seen it....
Would that be OK Janh?

BunglieOnTopOfTheChristmasTree · 07/12/2004 15:41

Janh I have sent you a 'quick' email but sent it to your hotmail address....sorry!