Shamima begum allowed to return to UK

[mummabear1967]

Surely I’ve got this wrong? She’s actually allowed back to the UK after joining a terrorist group abroad?

Anyone just a tiny bit worried about what might happen if she does return?

@LolaSmiles

Your obsessed with making people agree that they are just the same as CSE victims, all through the thread, your the only person taking about it, when frankly there are far more disturbing issues with this case.

I'm obsessed with saying different types of grooming are the same?

Yet on this same page I've literally said:
How many times do I have to point out that giving DIFFERENT examples of grooming to challenge the idea that a 15 year old apparently knows exactly what they're doing is not saying they're the same? It's like you are being deliberately obtuse.
Doesn't sound like someone saying they're the same.

And this is also on this page:
I've not said CSE and grooming for extremism are the same.

The reason I mentioned CSE and county lines is because some posters were claiming that she wasn't groomed and knew exactly what she was doing, whereas I consider a 15 year old a child who absolutely can be groomed and targeted by adults with their own agendas.

Doesn't sound very much like saying different types of grooming are the same.

And a page back:
I mentioned CSE and country lines grooming because some people on this thread have seriously argued that SB should not be allowed in the UK because she was a 15 year old girl and knew exactly what she was getting into! Apparently if you're a Muslim schoolgirl then that doesn't count as grooming.

Again, talking about the double standards where grooming only applies to some children isn't the saying they're the same.

And further back:
I didn't say the cases were the same.

I'm saying children can be groomed and at the end of the day they are children.

She was a child and a UK citizen. She is our responsibility. What sort of country abandons the rule of law and washes its hands of a child who was born, raised, groomed and radicalised in their country?

If you think it doesn't count because she was 15 and groomed by a terrorist organisation then that's worrying.

And yet I'm 'obsessed' with saying different types of grooming are the same.

Yeaaah...

You’ve actually just proved my point.

It was theoretical @ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

You’ve actually just proved my point
Several posts stating categorically that different types of grooming aren't the same proves your point that I'm obsessed with saying different types of grooming are the same?

Ok then. That makes total sense.

@CodexDevinchi

Jesus some of the latter comments on here about why posters don’t want her back are ridiculous and bigoted themselves. Maybe posters are just scared she will get out and continue or she will become a figure head because of the media coverage. Doesn’t mean they are ignorant or racist. People’s genuine concerns are valid. Those girls joined an army that inflicted a lot horrific damage, what they did to the Kurdish women and children is beyond evil. People have a right to be scared of anyone with that connection. It really doesn’t help that one of the girls father was filmed at a rally with well know Islamic hate preachers and Lee Rigbys killer. People feel fear when this women is in the news. To call it racism is just fucking basic.

For what it’s worth I do think she should be bought home. These were not stupid girls, they all studied very hard but we need to find out how this happened. The school and police had already spoken to these girls in school and did not inform their parents. Why? I’m actually in two minds if they used them as bait tbh. And she needs to come back and talk.

👏 superb post

[quote MellowBird85]@LolaSmiles

I think in most extremist recruitment there is an element of grooming (aka radicalisation). ISIS obviously preys on vulnerable people i.e. young and impressionable and / or people who feel they’ve been dealt a bad hand by society.

But I do not think this and CSE are comparable.

The main reason for this is that, with CSE grooming, it is very insidious. The majority of teenage girls will start forming relationships with males and experimenting with sexuality at some point and, most of the time, there’s nothing wrong with this, it’s just part of growing up. This is how most CSE begins - innocently.

My point is that these girls simply believe they are doing something normal / natural with no ill intent towards anyone, including themselves. In the case of Shamima Begum, she knew full well that the purpose of ISIS is to cause terror, pain, death and horrendous atrocities to others. CSE victims have no such intentions and it’s insulting to tar them with the same brush.

This, I believe, is why other poster’s are rejecting the notion that the two are one in the same.[/quote]
Another well written post. Brilliant!

I haven't caught up with the whole thread but

On the posts I've read I agree with Lola

Either 15yo can be groomed or they can't
It's totally illogical to say it's either grooming or not depending on you view of the victim/ what they did

She is British. She is 'ours'. She was raised educated radicalised here. For the UK to try to palm her off into other countries that have had nothing to do with making her is to me bizarre.

A few hundred or so men who have done things like this are back.

She seems to be a scapegoat.

Why is the 'face' of evil Islamist extremism in the UK a girl who left at 15 rather than anyone else? It's very odd.

We can't dump people we don't want on countries much less able to keep an eye on them, who have massive problems, who are way less wealthy etc etc.

Why do so many people in the UK think we should always get what we want? It's like Brexit. We seemed to want to keep the bits we liked about being in, with no obligations on our part.. when they said no it was seen as not fair.

She is ours. Our responsibility. We get her back and we put her on trial etc etc.

Also. The point about human rights is they apply to everyone. Not just people you approve of. Because if you start picking and choosing it goes nowhere good.

'
The main reason for this is that, with CSE grooming, it is very insidious. The majority of teenage girls will start forming relationships with males and experimenting with sexuality at some point and, most of the time, there’s nothing wrong with this, it’s just part of growing up. This is how most CSE begins - innocently'

It really really isn't. This post is nuts. Some of the girls were incredibly young. Males? Most girls of 12 for example don't start sexually experimenting with 'males'.

It makes it sound reciprocal.

This thread is grim.

The whole reason the girls who were exploited were ignored for years (and it's still going on) is because they were seen as active, knowing participants in what was abuse.

ShinyFootball
You're right. We can't say some 15 year olds know exactly what they're doing, but other 15 year olds can be groomed.

You're also right that there's a massive safeguarding issue when adults start viewing children as knowing and informed participants in their own grooming.

Sadly pointing out these facts has caused controversy.
Then again repeatedly saying different types of grooming are NOT the same, but we have to accept either 15 year old children can be groomed in a range of ways or say 15 year olds are old enough to be held responsible for their actions because they know what they're doing is apparently being 'obsesed' with saying different types of grooming are the same.

It's illogical, but then so many of the arguments here seem to boil down to 'dont mention any contractions in attitudes to the rule of law / citizenship/ deporting foreign nationals for crimes committed overseas / grooming, SB is just different because she just is so don't talk about the contradictions.

MellowBird85 you understand nothing about grooming and csa. Your understanding appears to be based on itv dramas or some such shit. But that figures when so many on this thread have allowed the media to manipulate their responses to S.B. So vocal about her yet so silent about the legal principles, the human rights issues and the truck loads of men who returned back.

“It’s like championing the human rights of Ian Huntley”

Who was arrested, investigated, charged, represented according to the law, found guilty, convicted and sentenced if I remember correctly to two life terms.

Due process and rule of law. Without it we sink to the standards of places like Syria. Yes, it often feels unpalatable on a human level but it’s vital if our society is to continue to function.

Oh bore off @QualityFeet. Posts that resort to swearing and smug, derogatory comments lose all credibility. If you’re going to disagree with someone, at least try to do it with some level of intellect.

I am going to stick to facts and reason. Whether surrounded by smugness or swearing their validity is untainted.

Basically it boils down to "15 yos can be groomed, but not this one because we don't like her and we look at her as a villain rather than a victim. She must stay a villain. How dare you "

Mellow Bird

Ok then

Would you care to expand on your statement that CSA victims are actively seeking sexual encounters with 'males' as a natural part of life.

Bearing in mind that I have definitely read about a victim being 12.

@ShinyFootball

Mellow Bird

Ok then

Would you care to expand on your statement that CSA victims are actively seeking sexual encounters with 'males' as a natural part of life.

Bearing in mind that I have definitely read about a victim being 12.

I didn’t interpret that from her response at all.

She was illustrating that the difference appears to be, the CSA victims are the only victims of what’s happening to them.

Nothing they do hurts anyone else. It’s obviously terrible for them (even if they don’t realise it at the time) it’s heartbreaking for them as they don’t realise the perpetrators are abusing them.

Actually many victims of CSA also recruit other young girls to be exploited.

And boys too, of course.

2020 erm she did

'The majority of teenage girls will start forming relationships with males and experimenting with sexuality at some point and, most of the time, there’s nothing wrong with this, it’s just part of growing up.'

It hurts their families.
It hurts them in such a way as to potentially cause issues through life that will hurt others e.g addiction and all that can come with that and what it means for society, and any children they may have in the future could be affected as well.

Note I am not saying all CSA victims are addicts/ or have problems that persist though life impacting future family etc but to pretend there is only 1 victim is very very shortsighted.

This thread is grim. It certainly is.

@ShinyFootball

It hurts their families. It hurts them in such a way as to potentially cause issues through life that will hurt others e.g addiction and all that can come with that and what it means for society, and any children they may have in the future could be affected as well.

Note I am not saying all CSA victims are addicts/ or have problems that persist though life impacting future family etc but to pretend there is only 1 victim is very very shortsighted.

I agree that they hurt others, ie their families, but that’s a given. It’s tragic for all involved.

It is grim indeed!

'The only British thing about her is her passport. '

That's just not true though is it. She was born raised and educated here.

Who gets to decide who is 'British' enough? You? To sift through and say dump them on other countries/ or they can stay depending on whatever feel at the time?

Is John warboys British? He attacked scores of women.