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Shamima begum allowed to return to UK

792 replies

mummabear1967 · 16/07/2020 11:00

Surely I’ve got this wrong? She’s actually allowed back to the UK after joining a terrorist group abroad?

Anyone just a tiny bit worried about what might happen if she does return?

OP posts:
malaguena · 18/07/2020 14:34

"British on paper" what the hell? Is she a bit too brown maybe? This case has nothing to do with the liberal elites letting terrorists run the country. It is illegal under international law to make someone stateless. She is British born and bred with no other citizenship, so like it or not she is our responsibility. Don't you think Syria has enough crap to deal with right now without sheltering all these nutters? Haven't they done enough damage? Let her come back and face the courts, and if she is a danger keep her in jail. Why on earth are we dumping these people on Syrians?

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/07/2020 14:38

sure as a 20 year old woman she capable of making her own way back and please her case - Or does the poor lamb need a special plane sent to a war zone to rescue her?

I think you are misunderstanding this case. She doesn't need a special plane to airlift her out because she's in a war zone. She needs to be brought home because she has been illegally denied stateship of her own country. It will be reinstated by the courts of course because what Sajid Javid did was illegal.

Evelefteden · 18/07/2020 14:40

@malaguena

"British on paper" what the hell? Is she a bit too brown maybe? This case has nothing to do with the liberal elites letting terrorists run the country. It is illegal under international law to make someone stateless. She is British born and bred with no other citizenship, so like it or not she is our responsibility. Don't you think Syria has enough crap to deal with right now without sheltering all these nutters? Haven't they done enough damage? Let her come back and face the courts, and if she is a danger keep her in jail. Why on earth are we dumping these people on Syrians?
Well the U.K. has a long history of dumping criminals in other countries..
mummabear1967 · 18/07/2020 14:40

@Everycloud12 it’s actually not racism but if that’s what you think then whatever.

If you lost a loved one to to terrorism, would you still be supportive of her?

OP posts:
TooTrueToBeGood · 18/07/2020 14:42

@Evelefteden

Presumably it means she's not white. Can't you hear the choruses of "send the buggers back" echoing around this thread?

One clearly racist poster does not speak to every one else who does not want her back. However convenient it is for you.

There has been more one poster on this thread whose views smack of racism. I also don't need racist overtones from other posters for my convenience. My understanding of our fundamental legal principle and why they are so important is all I need to support my position.
Autviaminveniamautfaciam · 18/07/2020 14:43

She wasn't a world wise 15 year old

I have always been pretty streetwise, but at 15 I wouldn't have been able to sneak out my passport, get past my parents, dupe airport security, cross the Turkish border and join ISIS.

She sounds pretty worldly to me!

2020wasShocking · 18/07/2020 14:44

@CherryPavlova

I’ll end up sounding like I’m condoning her actions- which I don’t.

A termination is about the girls decision to fully understand the risks and benefits to be able to give informed consent. Those risks are well known and there is a legal requirement that the doctor should be trying to persuade her to involve her parents. That doesn’t happen but is a requirement for full consent.

Shamima had no adult assessing her understanding and couldn’t possibly have known the risks. She was unable to make an informed decision. She certainly couldn’t consent to marriage.

I don’t understand the degree of animosity towards an abused young girl unless it’s racism. Venables and Rogers served about 8 years for murdering Jamie Bulger and Venables received £29, 000 compensation for an unfair trial.

Shamima has no convictions. There is no suggestion she has committed violent crimes. Her worst crime is likely to be supporting a proscribed organisation. Yet people suggest hanging and lifelong incarceration? Why are we not suggesting the Rotherham victims be charged with prostitution? Because that would be an abhorrent notion but yet we want to remove all rights from a young girl who was abused.

Feels like Islamophobia and that it’s not the crime, it’s the colour.

Those boys were vilified far far more than what Begum is. I’m astonished at the number of sympathisers in this tbh and to try and make it about race is just ridiculous. They were also a lot younger than her.

Regarding the Rotherham case, it seems like they got away with it and it was played down because of their ethnicity/religious views not inspite of.

The whole age debate ‘ohhh she was a kid 15 bla bla bla’, yes she was technically, but does that mean that a child of 16 years, 1 day thinks completely different to a child of 15 years, 11months and 29 days?? I think not. Legally if that’s lined regardless then that’s the line but it doesn’t actually mean she wasn’t accountable for her actions.

It’s like a 16 year old can have a baby, keep it, look after it etc no problem, that’s absolutely fine. They’re deemed capable of think for themselves and another life and make decisions for both of them..... but a child of 15 years, 11 months and 29 days wouldn’t?!?!

The fact she was a grade A student tells me she wasn’t stupid, she wasn’t behind and she was smart.

You say she’s committed no violent crimes ok, so where do you stand on the concept of someone standing watching their friend murdering 25 children and adults? Do you believe that they shouldn’t be convicted of anything because they were not the ones holding the knife? Are you saying it’s ok to be an accomplice to murder as long as your just watching it happen?

Timetospare · 18/07/2020 14:45

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

So by that thought process every right wing racist who carries out an atrocity against the state should be made stateless ? I'm thinking of Jo Cox murderer.. or the 7/7 bombers . Who actually killed people when they were adults .. should be deported to a refugee camp, made stateless without any 'due legal process' of their country ?

This is EXACTLY the type of lawless .. literally law less behaviour expected of ISIS - where you are found guilty without any access to justice.

She is a British citizen. Born bred and bought up here. She a CHILD. There is no legal definition in law of an 'adolescent' you are a child until you are 18 , when you become an adult. No grey area there.

There is no justification for not bringing her back to her home country and subjecting her to the full force of English law including a charge of belonging to a proscribed group.

You can't just abandon the legal process because it's unpalatable and unpopular.

The law is not about morals and popular opinion, It is about liability and intent and proven or not prove. by the FACTS.

There is no doubt in my mind that she needs to stand trial..and pay the consequences of a terrible decision but ONLY once she has had an opportunity of a fair trial which is enshrined in the DOHR . Under article 6. to which the UK is a signatory.

To deny a citizen this fundamental right puts us on the same path of summary justice that she thought a good idea at 15 years old. I for one would expect better from this country. I expect her to be shown exactly how responsible and law abiding country behaves. To do otherwise makes us no better than the 'perfect state' she thought she was fleeing to.

If ever the phrase '2 wrongs don't make a right ' were true. This is it.

Absolutely nailed it!
disorganisedsecretsquirrel · 18/07/2020 14:56

Sorry everyone but unfortunately we live in a democracy. Where laws need to be upheld . You cannot act unlawfully by making someone stateless just because you feel like it or public opinion wants it. It's just not the way it works. It makes us no better than a tinpot dictatorship like the one she fled to.

As for those shouting 'She's not a child she's an adult 20 year old woman ' ..

How old she is now is entirely irrelevant in law. With the exception that over the age of criminal responsibility (10) the offences she might be charged with cannot be wiped away.

Nevertheless she was a child of 15 when she committed the offence of 'membership of a proscribed terrorist organisation' . It remains to be seen if she wanted to leave or remain once she turned 18. - or if she was even able to.

That information can only be known during a free and fair trial in her own country. The UK.

BlackPetunia · 18/07/2020 15:07

Haven’t read the thread

But have we decided how she’s going to ‘get back’ to Britain? Who is off to Syria to pick her up?

BlackPetunia · 18/07/2020 15:10

Remember she approved of the Manchester bombing saying it was justified

She was also not bothered seeing a severed head after isis fighters had finished with it

And all her kids are somehow dead.... not sure I’d be volunteering to be anywhere near that kind of person

AIMD · 18/07/2020 15:13

@Timetospare exactly

disorganisedsecretsquirrel · 18/07/2020 15:18

I'm also interested to know how many people make the same life choices now as they did at 15 ?

I dropped out of A levels because they were 'pointless' (17)
At 24 I sat them at night school realising they were my access to Uni and a better career.

I smoked at 14 because I thought it 'cool' . I stopped at 27 because I realised it would kill me .

At 16 I joined the British Communist party because I wanted the world to be a utopian place where everyone was equal. At 21 I left because I grew up and realised it's a lovely idea but completely impossible due to the nature of humans.. I'm now a right of centre socialist ...

Surely every adolescent child has ridiculous ideas.. that they now realise were batshit crazy. ? The difference comes when teenage thoughts are not changed or modified following life experiences. Maybe she hasn't changed at all. Maybe she has. An interview by the right wing press or the left wing media is not a court of law.

Which is the only place she should be judged.

KatherineParr4 · 18/07/2020 15:34

Totally agree that she needs a fair trial. No dispute on that. However let’s not pretend she was an innocent child who didn’t know what she was doing. As someone said upthread, to plan and execute her escape , leaving her family devastated is not the action of a child.

2020wasShocking · 18/07/2020 15:36

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

I'm also interested to know how many people make the same life choices now as they did at 15 ?

I dropped out of A levels because they were 'pointless' (17)
At 24 I sat them at night school realising they were my access to Uni and a better career.

I smoked at 14 because I thought it 'cool' . I stopped at 27 because I realised it would kill me .

At 16 I joined the British Communist party because I wanted the world to be a utopian place where everyone was equal. At 21 I left because I grew up and realised it's a lovely idea but completely impossible due to the nature of humans.. I'm now a right of centre socialist ...

Surely every adolescent child has ridiculous ideas.. that they now realise were batshit crazy. ? The difference comes when teenage thoughts are not changed or modified following life experiences. Maybe she hasn't changed at all. Maybe she has. An interview by the right wing press or the left wing media is not a court of law.

Which is the only place she should be judged.

But those are normal teenage/young adult choices.

This is joining an organised terrorist organisation that makes bombs designed specifically to cause as much suffering impact as possible. That Manchester concert was always going to be full of kids and young adults and they didn’t care. She stayed in that organisation...

It’s a world away from the silly choices the vast vast majority of 15 year old make.....

TheNighthawk · 18/07/2020 16:25

Shamima Begum is a Bangladeshi citizen. Depriving her of British Citizenship was not illegal.

www.ejiltalk.org/shamima-begum-may-be-a-bangladeshi-citizen-after-all/

mummabear1967 · 18/07/2020 16:27

@2020wasShocking I completely agree. I just despair at the thought of her coming back here and potentially being allowed to mix with the public again at some point. I just hope it doesn’t have devastating consequences.

What if all this is fake and really she wants back to the U.K. to carry out an attack?

OP posts:
KatherineParr4 · 18/07/2020 16:36

She has never lived in Bangladesh though. It’s not the responsibility of a country she’s never lived in to deal with her .

2020wasShocking · 18/07/2020 16:36

[quote mummabear1967]@2020wasShocking I completely agree. I just despair at the thought of her coming back here and potentially being allowed to mix with the public again at some point. I just hope it doesn’t have devastating consequences.

What if all this is fake and really she wants back to the U.K. to carry out an attack?[/quote]
I agree completely. Looks like the above poster has shared something interesting regarding her citizenship. Fingers crossed she can’t come back! It even better, she comes back, goes straight to prison for 10 years then gets shipped off to live a life in Bangladesh away from all of her friends and family!! Why should we (the British tax payer) pay for her protection for the rest of her life?!

lakesidesummer · 18/07/2020 16:45

Why should we (the British tax payer) pay for her protection for the rest of her life?!

The clue to answering this question comes in something else you wrote.

gets shipped off to live a life in Bangladesh away from all of her friends and family!!

Her life is in the UK, for better or worse she is one of us and therefore we need to manage her and the risks she poses.
We as a country raised her we need to take responsibility for what we have created.

mummabear1967 · 18/07/2020 16:47

Exactly! I can’t stand her arrogance either. I remember when she first resurfaced about a year ago that she tried to get people to feel sorry for her. She should be remorseful and should be apologetic to the relatives of families who have lost loved ones to barbaric attacks carried out by that murderous group.

Her attitude was disgusting. How dare she put the spotlight on herself

OP posts:
2020wasShocking · 18/07/2020 16:54

Pretty sure we didn’t raise her. She didn’t like the western cultures and values so looked to somewhere else! They are enemies not friends!

She may have been born here but as I’ve stated, on the back of her mother being from Bangladesh, hopefully that technicality will be enough to ship her as far away from these shores as possible

Apologies that I don’t wish to welcome her back with open arms- it’s just she’s been part of a group that commits atrocities and that want to do as much harm to the west as possible.... sorry I don’t feel pitty for her.

I do feel bad for Bangladesh as why should they have to take her back? However the fact she was happily living with terrorists that hate Britain and everything we stand for and the actively seek to harm us, I feel that trumps all her rights to stay here!

2020wasShocking · 18/07/2020 16:54

@lakesidesummer

lakesidesummer · 18/07/2020 16:57

We as a country raised her.
We may not like what she did, or the beliefs she holds.
They may be illegal even.
But she was born and raised in this country, she went through our education system.
She is ours.

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