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Human bloody rights and convicted murderers

242 replies

shinyhappytonks · 20/08/2007 20:16

Makes me so mad

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6955071.stm

and since when does 'a life sentence' mean you get out when you are 26

11 paltry years for taking someones life, and altering an entire family

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:38

nadine....you do NOT read the mail?

I like the mirror (or i did under piers morgan), the indie, the observer (which is annoying but i like the vacuous magazine of a weekend).

the daily mail is inexcusable imo. i'll take the sun over the mail any day of the week.

CHOCOLATEPEANUT · 21/08/2007 22:39

The reason there is so much crime and in particular violent crime is there is no deterrent.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Youths out of control should be birched.
Murderers should be hanged.
And prison should be hard bloody labour.

The trouble is there are too many bloody liberals talking about rights and rehabilitation.

WAKE UP

Look around you and whats happening today in society.

I tell you I would bloody do the job myself and hang from thier legs to make sure they were dead.

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:39

I haven't been a victim of violence lately, Soph! I'm far too fucking scary!

I had a few incidents in my youth, but they were sporadic, weirdo individuals, rather than kids roaming in gangs like they do now.

It depends where you live. You can live somewhere and not see it, or you can live elsewhere and see it every day.

I don't believe that I'm influenced by the media. But if a paper, any paper, carries a story that a man has been murdered outside his home by a pack of teenagers, then I have no reason to disbelieve it. Are you saying that the media are making things up?

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:40

desi it is NEWS therefore it is rare.

does the work of the yorkshire ripper mean that there are loads of serial killing nutters out there murdering working girls? no. lots of men abusing them for sure. but not that. that is why it is news no?

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:41

... well I wouldn't go that far, peanut

Hurlyburly · 21/08/2007 22:41

" tell you I would bloody do the job myself and hang from thier legs to make sure they were dead."

Corking. Wouldn't it be more fun to sit next to a guillotine knitting? I'd prefer that. Not quite so hands on but more opportunity for blood spatters.

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:41

chocolatepeanut(brain? sorry sorry sorry couldn't resist) the ultimate deterrant: the death penalty, sorry it doesn't bring murder rates down.

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:42

I'll hit you straight back with a bad comparison, soph

You can't compare serial killers to general, bad-shit anti-social behaviour. There have always been serial killers, and there have always been, for example, paedophiles.

I don't know how old you are (forgive me, should have checked), but the world is generally humming at a higher-level of violence and aggression than it ever did before.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/08/2007 22:43

I find the the constant anti-Mail stuff on Mumsnet quite tedious, actually.
I don't ever buy it but look at it online sometimes if I'm surfing through all the papers and like most papers it's good on some things, bad on others.
Eg. the thread on that domestic violence case that Edam started tonight - that's actually a Mail story.
And re Chindamo etc, the Mail gave a much more rounded picture of him than the BBC in the first article I read (eg it talked about the fact that he'd lived in England nearly all his life).

And yes, sometimes their anti-immigration line is so strong it's like self-parody (there was a particularly bizarre one on swans being eaten by Eastern Europeans) but personally I'm bright enough to work out that they have a bias.

noddyholder · 21/08/2007 22:45

The thing I dislike most about this thread is the title human'bloody' rigths like its a bad thing!Very DM

snowleopard · 21/08/2007 22:46

ChocolatePeanut are you for real? It's easy to trot out that line, but it's just wrong. Look at the US. Many states have the death penalty. There have also been extreme deterrents introduced like 3 strikes and you're out in california - which has led to people being put in prison for life for things like stealing loves of bread. Does it reduce crime? No, the US has far, far higher murder rates than we have here.

Which suggests crime does not happen or not happen because of "deterrents". It happens because of society and what it is like. That is a fact, not a liberal opinion.

(Though I am proud to be what some people call a bloody liberal)

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:46

i'm loving the swans thing

ok. not as bad i reckon desi (comparison wise).

i'm 35.

i was more scared in the 80s. it was more scarey (remember?)

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:47

Well, I used to live in Coventry and, err, about six years ago, some eastern Europeans were killing swans and eating them. It wasn't made up .. they did! They didn't know it was wrong, to be fair, but it doesn't make the media reportage untrue.

So hang me (but please, not by ChocolatePeanut)

snowleopard · 21/08/2007 22:47

"loves" I can spell honest, I just don't bother on here

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:49

yes yes.

there was also a posh english man that got done by the police for 'hanging' as in making the meat taste better a swan. no one is supposed to eat swans cause of the queen innit. bloody crap reason for not eating them. much better not to because they look beautiful on the water if not out of it.

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:49

The 80s was a hideous decade. One of my great regrets was that in the whole history of time, I had to have the 80s when I was in my 20s.

Mullets, men who rolled their jacket sleeves up and smelt of something ineffable, the shite music!

But those were crimes against taste and fashion

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/08/2007 22:50

swans in Daily Mail

Desi I know it may well be true, but you've still got to relish the first two sentences.

Sorry for hijack.

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:51

i was in my teens and my sister and i used to bemoan our fate for being youth in the 80s. twas awful. and more violent than now, honest desi. promise.

aloha · 21/08/2007 22:51

By the year 1820 it was estimated that in London, of a population of a million people, there were at least 30,000 thieves operating who annually stole property valued at two million pounds. Statistics revealed that crime had increased 41 per cent in seven years. Murder was becoming common place, in Shadwell alone in 1811 there were six unsolved murders, then came the horrifying Ratcliffe Highway murders.

The planners for the New Police aimed to create seventeen Divisions to Police London, the City of London not being included. The two joint Commissioners of the new Metropolitan Police Richard Mayne and Colonel Charles Rowan decided to raise a force of 3,350 Officers and men. A Division would consist of a Superintendent, four Inspectors, sixteen Sergeants and 144 Constables.

On 29th September, 1829, A.B.C.D.E. and F Divisions were operational and on 1st February, 1830 G.H.J.K.L.M. and N were in existence. It did not take the Commissioners long to realise that the idea of a standard strength of the Divisions was impractical. For example by June 1830 ?K? the Stepney Division, had the strength of 297 men, a number in excess of the original establishment.

It is no wonder that more men were needed in the East End when one authority wrote of the 1840's. There were plague spots, where herded together the vilest and lowest of the criminal fraternity - men, women and children - could be found. The Police did their best but there were places, where, if an officer dared to walk alone, he carried his life in his hands and where double patrols were the merest precaution. Such a spot was Ratcliffe Highway, running into the heart of Dockland. Its cosmopolitan inhabitants found their prey in the sailors, exuberant with freedom and flushed with money after a long voyage. Beer shops, dancing saloons, opium dens, lodging houses and gambling halls drew the pigeon and the hawks. No reputable person, man or woman, would pass through the streets.

Far into the night pandemonium reigned, a street fight where belts, knives and bludgeons were used were no uncommon occurrence' Time and time again the Police were assaulted, yet they made headway. Even as late as 1870, the Superintendent in charge of 'H' Division stated "Assault on Police was more frequent on this than any other Division", perhaps the area was too poor to support them. The Superintendent during this time was advised by the Yard to pay particular attention to the sale of wild birds in Club Row, Petticoat Lane and the Whitechapel Markets.

The Protection racket was worked in the Whitechapel area in the 1880's. A gang known as the Bessarabians, demanded tribute from a Jewish shopkeeper named Kikal. He refused to pay up and set about the gangsters with an axe.

The local people who had been intimidated by the gangs were so inspired by his example that they set up their own vigilante group for the mutual protection of the weak. But we find a few weeks later the Vigilantes under the name of Odessians were themselves demanding money with menaces. The climax came when the two gang met in a hall over the York Minster Public House in Philpot Street. It is said thai some 200 people fought over the spoils of the 'Racket', Kid McCoy (despite the name a Jewish Boxer), killed one of his rivals and the Police moved in. People could at last be found to testify and both gangs were smashed. Kid McCoy later went to the United States where it is said he led a decent life. But others of the gangs are said to have fled to Chicago, where they are alleged to have set up a protection racket on more fertile ground.

The Jack the Ripper murders have had dozens of films, books etc written about them that it is only necessary for me to mention them as perhaps the most notorious crimes of the 19th Century East End.

In the 1890's a notorious Westminster Gang, known as the 'Strutton Ground Boys' descended on Petticoat Lane Market one Sunday morning and demanded, 'Protection Money'. Their demands being refused, the gang rough handled both the traders and their goods, The clique departed with a warning to return if their demands were not met the next week. The 'Boys' didn't get any tribute, but they did get more than they bargained for. When the market closed the Street Traders, so incensed at their treatment, called a meeting and with their friends, set off for Westminster. Arming themselves with clubs, the angry mob descended on Strutton Ground and locating the home of the gangs proceeded to wreck them. The gang returned to find the market people in action and a fierce fight developed. Police were called and had the satisfaction of clearing up the gangs.

Mention must also be made of another illegal organisation predominant in the 1890's in their own particular field. 'The Blind Beggar Gang' - a twenty strong group of pickpockets who plied their trade in Petticoat Lane, until at last they over reached themselves and diligent observation by picked Police officers resulted in the termination of the gang's activities.

The Blind Beggar Public House is better known today for the killing within the bar of George Cornell by Ronnie Kray.

To end on a different note from 1892-1896 the Allied-Nihilist, a Pre-Revolutionary group of Russian exiles were busy formulating bomb plots. The group were not without some sort of reputation on the Continent, where they made several attempts on the lives of Statesmen and Monarchs.

In this highly civilised country the Anarchists ran a social club in Jubilee Street, Stepney, to raise money for their political activities. At one time they applied for permission to hold a public meeting in Trafalgar Square. The application was refused and returned endorsed. 'That after due consideration the application is refused". I cannot think of another country that would even have considered it. Apparently even then immigrants were treated with favourable consideration.

This article appears courtesy of the Metropolitan Police History Society

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:51

kathy. thank you. really did laugh out loud nearly scared dh.

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:52

god its like being airlifted out when aloha arrives with a really long factually accurate post

Desiderata · 21/08/2007 22:53

Oh, I relish them Kathy ... but I relish them for the barely suppressed humour.

I don't see anything right-wing-knee-jerk-nazibastard about it. I don't think you do, either.

Ahhh, fuck the lot of ye ... it's a fine old paper

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:54

and before anyone says: yes but that was in victorian times, the whole big point thing of it is that they had all the deterrants you're after and IT DIDN'T WORK and it was all much more feral and violent.

maybe we're jsut more shocked by it. which is no bad thing imo.

[still slightly reeling that kathy is irritated by anti-mail diatribes....]

CHOCOLATEPEANUT · 21/08/2007 22:54

brain? real?

oh yes

I am. Live in the real world I do. Man goes out and is attacked by youths, rare? No not by a long chalk.

And I hate bloody liberals as its beause of them and thier oh so rosy look on life that this country has descended into the mess it is today.Try driving round a few council etsates and see how people who have fought for this country live in fear of leaving thier own homes because of some youths that did not have a bike when they were five.

Heathcliffscathy · 21/08/2007 22:55

desi, my granny isn't laughing. or at least she wouldn't be if she wasn't eastern european herself. if you transposed muslims for eastern europeans she'd be fearing the swan hunting hoardes.