Human bloody rights and convicted murderers

[shinyhappytonks]

Makes me so mad

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6955071.stm

and since when does 'a life sentence' mean you get out when you are 26

11 paltry years for taking someones life, and altering an entire family

they're going to appeal aren't they?

i still can't get over 12 years for murder. that's bloody outrageous

I think this explains it best:

"We?ve always been given the impression that he would be deported and so I suppose that was part of the whole justice system. If you see things being dealt with properly, that can alleviate a lot of anxiety, and that was our expectation."

Re. the nationality issue, she says "I totally understand that, and I think if I was one of the three judges, I would have come to the same decision [not to deport him to Italy]. I think it?s the fact that again and again, this highlights [the fact that] that the voices of ordinary people aren?t a consideration when these decisions are made."

She also says, "What I?m feeling is not solely about the deportation issue, but because of the stated reasons for that decision."

So basically, I think it's what the decision not to deport shows about the lack of a mechanism within the law for considering victims' rights, rather than the fact per se that he will still be living in England.

What is the objection to him staying here? To all intents and purposes he is British - passport notwithstanding. Any objection to the brevity of his sentence should be another issue and shouldn't be used as an excuse to punish him more which is how it appears to me. There is no evidence that he is any longer a dangerous man and has expressed remorse for his actions. Why would he want to hunt down the family of his victim unless he was a seriously sick individual and there is no evidence of that.

yes yes, but how will her rights be compromised if he is released at the end of his term into the community that he was raised in rather than the nominal country of his birth?

I still don't think it is clear.

from the first sentence can i gather than she views the deportation as part of the punishment?

absolutely the brevity or not of the sentence is a separate issue isn't it?

i really don't think the objections are very clear at all.

absolutely the brevity or not of the sentence is a separate issue isn't it?

i really don't think the objections are very clear at all.

This is interesting re crime hype.64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:-GmtU1hppdQJ:www.anxietyculture.com/crimescare.htm+violent+crime+1980s &hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=uk

Crime rates did soar in the 1980s under Thatcher, because society began to break down. They have fallen since.

And this 64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:99p6RJ9qop8J:news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/6906554.stm+violent+crime+1980s&h l=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk

"BCS crimes rose steadily during the 1980s and early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Between 1995 and 2004/05 total BCS crime fell and has since stabilised, with the recent apparent increase not being statistically significant, according to the Home Office."

Well, I think most people, if someone had killed their husband, would feel safer and more able to get on with their lives if killer was in a different country.

She doesn't say, however, that she thinks he should be deported. In fact she specifically says that she would have come to the same decision as the judges. What she is objecting to is the fact that the effect on her and her family does not, under this system, get considered at all.

The thing is, no-one has said, 'OK, she has rights and he has rights.... in this case she's probably pretty safe from him actually so his right to live in the country he grew up in outweighs this'. Instead, her rights didn't come into the equation at all. It's the process she thinks is wrong, rather than the result, if I understand her correctly.

I don't trust crime statistics. For the simple reason that people just don't bother to report stuff anymore. I know from my own boys that their peers have had things happen to them that they haven' reported. Ds1's friend was quite seriously assaulted outside a pub but didn't press charges.

I feel for his wife. She feels let down I think - the deportation was going to be part and parcel of the punishment and now it's not going to happen. The sentence was too short - probably becuase of his age at the time but I agree it's a separate issue.

The whole point is that not only have recorded crimes gone down (despite the fact that there are many activities have now been criminalised and things that would have been reported as one crime are now recorded as several) but when the British Crime Survey interviews tens of thousands of people (ie not relying on statistics) it finds the same pattern - ie violent crime not spiralling.

but aloha, the reason these threads are brickwall like is that NO ONE will accept that. because we are all so scared (see my thread of sunday night for eg of this, where little git was hassling me and i was scared of really tearing a strip off him in case he had a knife). being scared doesn't make we want to bring back birching or hanging nor does it make me believe that the main point of the criminal justice system should be retributive punishment....but it does make an awful lot of people feel that.

The fear of crime heightens people's belief that there is more crime than is actually occuring.

sophable, I think 12 years is the maximum sentence for murder, for someone under the age of 18.

So sorry you had a nasty experience Sophable. Yes, the fear of crime is toxic, isn't it?

I'm the world's biggest cynic.

The BCS doesn't include some types of crime

Crimes against businesses

Crimes where there is no direct victim (such as possession of drugs)

Crimes against victims younger than 16 (it is considered inappropriate to survey child victims of crime in a general household survey) - Both of my sons have had crime against them, and I can't believe there isn't an increase here.

Crimes that have involved deaths, like homicide (as the victims cannot be interviewed)

agree that a lot of crime is not reported because of the assumption that the police are too busy/too underfunded/too overwhelmed by bureaucracy to help in a meaningful way.

Interesting comment earlier about glamorisation of crime by some media - I think this does happen, particularly when the criminals are young like in the Bulger case. Those boys were clearly violent and what they did was ghastly but they were demonised to a point of hysteria by the red tops. They had fucked up lives. Learco Chindamo had a fucked up life. I hate what he did but he was young.

I have an interest in this case because a friend of mine used to teach him in 93/94 not long after we left teacher training college. He was dangerous and violent and my friend feared him. But as I recall his influences included the fact that his own father (learco's I mean) was already in prison for violent crime and his mother was downtrodden and depressed. He was also very weak academically. Blah blah blah....get the picture?

some people cannot be rehabilitated but some can. I have no idea if Learco feels true remorse or not but I expect his background formed a large part of why he killed Philip Lawrence.

well, re murder, I don't honestly think we need to interview people to discover the statistics on murder. It's not like people don't report it!

That's true aloha.

some more statistics on this site \link{http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page42.asp\here. I am very surprised at some of the stats. Crime doesn't seem to be dropping from where I am standing.

here

I'm known for being a total righty.

But even I can't understand why someone who has lived in the UK since the age of six would be deported, in this case.

depends where you choose to take as your baseline UCM (doesn't it always with stats?)

IIRC as well, crime reporting and stats were changed so even the official stats aren't a direct comparison, iyswim

Really, you need a crominologist. As far as I know I don't get an ologist for my course LOL.

did anyone watch channel 4 news tonight? about forgiveness?

I didn't, soph. What was said?