Another Novichok Poisoning?

[TokyoSushi]

Just breaking news now, how awful, I wonder how on Earth it's happening?

As the Skripal lived near Porton Down, it's logical that's where he would be poisoned if he were going to be so. If they didn't manage to clear up the original source, then that explains the second contamination.

If they didn't manage to clear up the original source, then that explains the second contamination.

Do you think this is didn’t or couldn’t? It’s possible, but seems unlikely that this is contamination from one of the areas said the skripals are known to have visited.

The unknown here is the person or people who poisoned them. And without identifying them and their movements there could potentially be a number of sites or items which are contaminated with Novichok which can’t be identified.

www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16335696.amesbury-nerve-agent-john-baker-house-residents-set-for-evacuation/

www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16099466.Man__23__dies_suddenly_in_city_centre_supported_housing/

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/05/homeless-hostel-in-salisbury-evacuated-after-novichok-poisoning?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1530794535

I'm finding some of the press coverage about the woman really snidey and nasty

This is so sad. Really don’t like the coverage of these poor people. They were clearly troubled. Last night on news night they had gone through the ladies Facebook page showing messages from her general life that have nothing to do with anything! Also a ‘friend’ supposedly said that they rummaged through bins as a ‘hobby’. Well if the discarded container was still in a public bin that is a complete fucking outrage. Have also seen reports about a Syringe (but don’t know if this is simply media making conclusions because they were users) if they had injected it directly into their veins surely, surely they would have died instantly? We’re not far away but feel really sorry for anyone who lives in Salisbury!

Helenadove, very interesting link, re the young man who died in the same supported accommodation as the current two victims.
I wonder if post mortem would be done on (I’m speculating here), a known drug user who apparently died of an OD?

If they didn't manage to clear up the original source, then that explains the second contamination.

Do you think this is didn’t or couldn’t?

I think it looks as if "the authorities" haven't got a clue what's going on. If they did there would have been no second poisoning episode.

I didn't know anything about Porton Down and have been doing some googling thanks to this thread It seems a line worth exploring...

Given that we don’t yet know how or where the couple came into contact with Novichok I’m not sure we can say it was preventable.

Possibly they could have communicated with the public more clearly.

That's interesting about young man - although it was a few days after the Skripals no-one would have made a connection, just thought drugs.

The police would be on it if there's anything unusual on the death cert.

@AndhowcouldIeverrefuse Porton Down is quietly notorious.

I'm by no means a conspiracy theorist but we live fairly locally to both sites and a few things stand out for me as just not sitting right.

When the Skirpals were poisoned I absolutely believed this poisoning had been ordered by Russia.

• The area in which the Skirpals moved on the day they fell ill and the restaurant were all cordoned off, with a visible Police presence day and night. It would have been very difficult for anyone to enter the site undetected.

• Novichok can still be dangerous for a while but it seems very unusual to say the least that in a park frequented by IV drug users it took 4 months for someone to be exposed to the contaminated sharps or whatever the contaminated item was. The man may have just been the unlucky one but IV drug users are not known for being discriminating in their choices but him? 4 months later? It could just be bad luck but it seems unlikely.

• Novichok has been synthesised at Porton, I don't know whether they still have it but they wouldn't tell us if they did.

• Despite it's tight security someone with clearance could remove a small item from Porton.

• Although this is not recent as far as we know Porton have a history of testing chemical weapons on service personnel. Google it.

• It is 9 or 10 miles from Salisbury to Amesbury. It takes under 2 minutes for Novichok poisoning to take effect. Unless you grew wings I don't think it would be possible to get from Salisbury to Amesbury alive.

• I feel uneasy about the lack of media information around the Amesbury incident, particularly as the speed of emergency services response was so rapid. They seemed to know what they were dealing with quickly but the news took days to come out.

I don't have any firm conclusions to draw and please do contradict anything I've said here, I'm interested in the debate and discussion.

I guess a more sinister prospect is that it was done on purpose

Novichok can take variable amounts of time to provoke symptoms, depending on dose and delivery system.

There is still no reason to think that this has come from Porton Down. The proximity in this day and age, given cars, trains etc is meaningless. The only time it becomes meaningful is if there is an accidental release into the environment. If that were the case, it wouldn't just be two people some disntace away from the labs.

I expect they are looking into the death of the other young man. I'd bloody hope so.

@OhYouBadBadKitten I agree with you in that I hope there is a full investigation into the death of the other young man on 14th March.

I feel very badly for the residents of John Baker House and the media coverage of the couple affected recently has been appalling.

If it was from a 'container'. How come it laid around for so long? What made them find it?

Purple I was thinking about making a press complaint - they're critically ill in hospital!

The woman's getting the brunt, don't think they know much about the bloke

It is 9 or 10 miles from Salisbury to Amesbury. It takes under 2 minutes for Novichok poisoning to take effect. Unless you grew wings I don't think it would be possible to get from Salisbury to Amesbury alive.

Given the Skripals were poisoned at home (front door), then went out for a meal in Salisbury, then pottered out, and were still alive – indeed the father was still conscious – on a bench, I'm not sure where you get your wild claim?

And the Skripals presumably received a higher dose, as they were directly targeted, rather than something left over many months afterwards.

The speed that Novicok takes effects would depend on dose and delivery method. If it took less than two minutes to take effect, the Skripals would never have left the house.

From what I’ve read in the police statements I don’t think the emergency services did know what was going on early on. It seems to have taken them until Sunday/Monday to decide that the symptoms weren’t from contaminated drugs. Which is possibly why it stayed out of the media so long.

Which is much longer than it took them in the case of the Skripals.

YY, completely agree there needs to be a full investigation into the death in March of the chap in John Baker House.

Baffling.

That's very interesting about SDH being the best placed hospital in the country to treat this kind of case, because of Porton Down. Does anybody know if that might be why Mr Skripal went to live there? Putin and his henchmen have form for poisoning people, don't they?

A PCC complaint is a good idea @LanguidLobster.

It's not a 'wild claim' @PerkingFaintly 'Novichoks were designed to be more toxic than other chemical weapons, so some versions would begin to take effect rapidly - in the order of 30 seconds to two minutes.
The main route of exposure is likely to be through inhalation or ingestion, though they could also be absorbed through the skin.
Chemical weapons expert Hamish de Bretton-Gordon said it was likely that the Wiltshire couple had somehow ingested Novichok - perhaps by transferring it from skin to the mouth.' From here BBC website
Novichok can take longer to take effect but if the man in the most recent case had used heroin so I'm assuming he wasn't entirely clear headed how long did it take him to get the 10 miles from Salisbury to Amesbury?
Has it been confirmed for definite that the Skirpals' front door was the source of their poisoning?
It seems safe to assume that the Skirpals were directly targeted, but we don't know for sure whether this latest couple were or weren't, although on the face of it a direct target seems highly unlikely.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay it was Sunday/Monday that this couple were identified as probably having been poisoned but I can't find a news report about it before Wednesday.

Yes @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g the Russians do have decades of form for poisoning.

The link didn't work from my phone, I'll try again
BBC News website

@PurpleNailVarnish, indeed they do. I remember the umbrella case. I've read a lot of Le Carre in my time, and that was like something out of a spy novel. And then there was that poor bloke in the Ukraine who died that awful, lingering death. All surely designed to send a very strong message to anyone else who might think of trying to stand up to Putin and his ilk.

So accprding to that, at the right dosage, inhaled or ingested, some symptoms of Novichok poisoning could potentially begin to be detected at less than 2 minutes.

But you stated people couldn't reach Amesbury alive if they'd picked up any dosage of Novichok poisoning in Salisbury.

Which is a gigantic leap. It's also flatly contradicted by what we do know about the Skripals.

(Yes, the police are pretty sure they were poisoned at their front door:
Skripals poisoned from front door of Salisbury home, police say
Specialists report highest concentration of nerve agent at home of Russian spy
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/28/skripals-poisoned-from-front-door-of-salisbury-home-police-say
Traces of the nerve agent have been found at some of the other scenes detectives have been working at over the past few weeks, but at lower concentrations than that found at the home address. )

I just don't think it's helpful to assert stuff as definitely true when it's not.

Not at all unreasonable to ask questions to get better informed, of course.