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Another Novichok Poisoning?

248 replies

TokyoSushi · 04/07/2018 21:57

Just breaking news now, how awful, I wonder how on Earth it's happening?

OP posts:
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PerkingFaintly · 06/07/2018 11:35

Sorry, reading back I think maybe you were trying to ask questions? But maybe they came out as statements when you didn't mean them to?

Sorry, I didn't want to be snappy at anyone. I just think it's best to try to avoid creating misinformation.

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OutwiththeOutCrowd · 06/07/2018 11:44

I am reminded of the case of Alexander Litvinenko and his putative assassin pouring excess radioactive Polonium down a hotel sink to get rid of it.

The perpetrator(s) in the Skripal case would not necessarily be any more careful about disposal of whatever contained the nerve agent and remaining residue.

I'm not suggesting the container was just abandoned where it could easily be found any more than the Polonium was, but there could have been a cursory, reckless attempt to get rid of the evidence.

A small syringe, for example, could go undetected in an area like Queen Elizabeth Gardens if an attempt was made to bury it or hide it in some other way. I've read that this park wasn't searched after the poisoning of the Skripals, though the bench where they were found is quite nearby.

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IrmaFayLear · 06/07/2018 12:00

An expert has said that any leftover Novichok would be seriously degraded after a few months’ exposure to the elements. That could explain why it might have taken longer to take effect on the couple.

I think it is material to discussion that they were drug addicts, as then the focus of searches can be bins, under benches etc. And indeed because they were heroin-addicted the syringe factor comes into play. They were known to frequent a bin and refuse storage area in Amesbury which could be where they were poisoned.

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PestymcPestFace · 06/07/2018 12:49

Were they directly targeted? Seems unlikely, unless there is some strange rouge agent / angel of death thing going on. Then the list of undesirables who are targets is quite personal and likely to contain double agents.

The Skirpals' case always sat uneasy with me, so many holes in the story. But secrecy and privacy almost account for that.

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gluteustothemaximus · 06/07/2018 13:16

The man who invented novichok, said that the substance doesn't degrade over time and can last for many years.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/novichok-inventor-amesbury-poisoning-salisbury-russia-vladimir-uglev-a8432876.html

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Kursk · 06/07/2018 13:19

I can't get my head round the idea of wanting to poison another human being

It’s not a case of wanting to. The people who did it were paid/ordered to. As for there sloppy handy work they obviously we’re not paid enough to give a crap.

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LanguidLobster · 06/07/2018 14:57

I get confused about them saying the Skripals were probably poisoned by the front door. They should be able to test for a yes or a no really easily.

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PerkingFaintly · 06/07/2018 16:05

Samples taken from the door have indeed been tested, and show that definitely yes, there was Novichok on the Skripals' front door. It was at a higher concentration on the front door, than anywhere else that has been tested.

Last I've read, the police still believe that's the most likely place the Skripals picked up the poisoning – fortunately on the way out of the house to a public place, not on the way in.

According to the UK National Security Advisor, smearing nerve agents on door handles is something Russia is known to have experimented with.

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/revealed-russias-death-by-door-knob-hit-squad-a3813491.html

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grauduroi · 06/07/2018 16:15

Our local radio website...there are articles on there if you go back to page 4 of the local news about how it was reported at first.

www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/

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HelenaDove · 06/07/2018 16:38

The HA i rent from is the same co. that rents out the rooms in John Baker. Now their workmen are called "multi skilled operatives" and tend to travel ALL over the country. (in the past we have had the gas safety check done by someone from miles and miles away) now if John Baker House has had any work done recently by any of these workmen they could easily be taking light traces of this shit elsewhere.

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HelenaDove · 06/07/2018 19:11

i understand the need to focus on the fact that the couple may have picked something up somewhere but that wont be the ONLY line of enquiry surely.

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LanguidLobster · 06/07/2018 19:52

It shouldn't be, but will be behind the scenes. I'm finding talk of picking up a cigarette or needle a bit ludicrous.

Hope they start to recover soon like the Skripals

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peridito · 06/07/2018 20:52

I think the Skripals got the correct treatment v quickly .I don't think this couple have and I fear that their recovery ,if there is one ,will not be so complete .

Although of course we don't know how the Skripals are .

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PurpleNailVarnish · 06/07/2018 23:49

You're right @PerkingFaintly, I was asking questions and generally chucking thoughts around.

Like @grauduroi I am local though I don't live in Salisbury itself.

When the Skripals were poisoned that, clearly, was an outrageous act. The mood locally and this is only my summary of the conversations I had with people as the details around the incident unfolded was that it was an attack aimed directly at the Skirpals, probably as a result of Russian aggression against a former employee of their government.
As this was suspected to be an act of political terrorism, rather than a domestic one, explains why the facts of the case released to the public have been sparse.

The events of the last week have made the whole situation even less clear and more worrying. In my opinion - based simply on my own reading of this - is that the couple who fell ill on Sunday/Monday and also possibly the man who died on 14th March, were less likely to have been directly targeted and more likely to be victims of accidental cross contamination.

To add to this there is a lack of information about Novichok, this can be shown by @IrmaFayLear's post and @gluteustothemaximus, where one expert says that Novichok degrades quickly whereas one of the scientists who developed it says it lasts for a long time.

I could disappear down a wormhole of discussion about how anyone, including the people who developed it may or may not know how long it takes to degrade but my point is that there is a lack of factual information about all of the incidents.

I hope that also explains my confusion about the length of time it took for the Novichok to take hold in these most recent cases @PerkingFaintly. I was making the assumption that he had been contaminated in Salisbury and made the journey to Amesbury and then became ill. There's no train station at Amesbury so he'd either driven or taken a bus, both of which would have taken time, even more so as the reports currently suggest after he'd taken strong opiates.

Whatever the circumstances, my hope is that anyone who has or will come into contact with Novichok receives the treatment they need and recovers well.

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PurpleNailVarnish · 06/07/2018 23:51

I don't know why most of that post was in bold, I didn't bold any of it.

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CantankerousCamel · 07/07/2018 00:54

They picked up a contaminated needle and jacked up with if.

It was not a second poisoning

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LanguidLobster · 07/07/2018 01:08

I don't think that's been confirmed?

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Grandmaswagsbag · 07/07/2018 07:55

But if they’ve injected it directly into their blood, how did they not die instantly? Their reaction was delayed, surely suggesting a similar level of exposure as the others. What I find completely unbelievable is that a container has potentially been lying around central Salisbury all this time. That would be a disgrace.

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PerkingFaintly · 07/07/2018 08:12

CantankerousCamel, do you have a source for that? Or are you making stuff up?Confused

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PerkingFaintly · 07/07/2018 08:14

Current state of the investigation:

Amesbury Novichok police operation 'will take months'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44748582

The Amesbury investigation has entered a new phase.
Scientists and chemical weapons experts at Porton Down in Wiltshire are bracing themselves for an influx of countless objects all needing forensic analysis.
Investigators, led by the Met Police's counter-terrorism detectives, are working on the basis that the pair - now critically ill from Novichok poisoning - handled a contaminated item that caught their interest.
They need to find it.
The item - or possibly items - are thought to be something found and touched by the pair, possibly something as innocuous as a perfume bottle or other luxury toiletry.
The search for this "source item" is likely to be extensive, painstaking and could last through the summer.

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IrmaFayLear · 07/07/2018 08:24

I was suggesting, PurpleNailVarnish, that if the poison had degraded, then the effect would not be immediate, but could have developed over... well, who knows? And I suppose there is not one sole phial of Novichok in the world; different permutations would have different strengths and results... presumably (?).

Hopefully the victims will recover and will be able to provide a clue to what happened. It may be thoroughly coincidental that they were intravenous drug users; apparently they also went in some charity shops among other places so poison traces could have been on... well, anything really.

Again, I feel for poor old Salisbury.

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PerkingFaintly · 07/07/2018 08:35

If it's correct that the contaminated object is something like a perfume bottle, then I can see how it would be possible for it to be picked up and then kept somewhere indoors all these months, and then used or more thoroughly handled last weekend.

NB I'm not claiming to know that's what happened – it's just one plausible mechanism. But given the police are currently pursuing the object theory, I can see why they've been searching John Baker House.

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PerkingFaintly · 07/07/2018 08:37

Yy, Irma, poor Salisbury.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 07/07/2018 08:59

To add to this there is a lack of information about Novichok, this can be shown by @IrmaFayLear's post and @gluteustothemaximus, where one expert says that Novichok degrades quickly whereas one of the scientists who developed it says it lasts for a long time.

I wonder whether some of this comes from the fact that Novichok isn’t one agent, it’s a group of agents. As far as I know they haven’t ever publically said which Novichok was used. It’s possible that different Novichoks have different properties.

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grauduroi · 07/07/2018 21:13

News just breaking that a police officer in Swindon (who has been involved in current operations) is being transferred to Salisbury hospital for possible Novichok poisoning.

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