Is there a thread about the poisoning of Skripal? [title edited by MNHQ]

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I've not seen a thread about it at all, but surely there must be?

Bore has asked me to post this as she is having difficulties with her ipad:
"counterpoint, the nerve agents are not new. They belong to the group of chemicals known as organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, which have been used for decades as pesticides and later as chemical warfare agents (developed in Nazi Germany). Novichoks are part of the same class and work in the same way. It's just that they are much more potent and were thought to be undetectable.

We know how they work and the drugs needed to treat them. I've looked after patients with OP pesticide poisoning myself (as an A&E and ITU nurse) who were treated in this way.

We also know well the signs and symptoms of OP poisoning. As I said very early in the thread, once seen, never forgotten. Which is probably why the Skirpals are still alive. The medics in Salisbury Hospital quickly recognised what they were dealing with.

There's a good Wikipedia article - especially 'effects'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

And a couple more

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning"

The availability of treatment/antidote depends on the action of the nerve agent.

If, as I had understood, the Novichok series is novel version of the V series nerve agents, then you would use the existing treatments for major disruption of cholinestease in the body.

If Novichok is totally different, ie does not act on cholinesterase, I would have expected some mention of that in the available information. But what I've seen does say they act on that metabolic pathway. counterpoint - what sources say differently? Or have I misunderstood your point?

There are many examples of chemical poisoning and also during illness caused by germs of medical people keeping people alive, while their bodies heal themselves. Life support is often just that.

I get it Counter, the formulations were published two decades ago. If we haven't made it and found an antidote, we would be slacking. So therefore, we have to be a suspect too (maybe a remote one, maybe not). Not sure why Heyduggees interprets it in such a way.

If I wanted to commit suicide, I would love access to CW, if only I had a link to a source.

@Heyduggeesflipflop - sorry I didn't see a question mark, but I'm guessing an ex-spy has "contacts". Unfortunately I'm not a member of the secret service so I'm not privy to that kind of info. I know I'm speculating, but I'm not able to rule it out as being a possibility. And I'm obviously not ruling out the Russians either.

I think there is a generic antidote to nerve agents rather than a specific one. ( atropine). It would be used for Sarin as well.
I think the trick would be to recognise that this was a nerve agent and administer it quickly enough to counteract its developing effects.

OYBBK

That's a bit of an odd argument pestilential. It's been in existence for sometime, so we must have an antidote, but if we have an antidote then it wasn't the Russians?

Someone mentioned antidotes in the news, right near the beginning. It was one of those things that raised an eye brow.

I would suspect that the first doses of atropine were given to treat symptoms of heart stopping rather than to counteract a nerve agent. Initially they would have been treating symptoms only.

You can not have it both ways.

Either only Russia has developed them - and the finger points to them or we have developed them also and the finger also points to us.

If we have antidotes (and they would have to be pretty specific, not as suggested to any old pesticides/fertilisers) then we MUST also have the nerve agents and hence we can no longer claim ONLY Russia has them (as other countries would have them too if they are so similar to organophosphates that we can all make them)!

Your argument has fallen flat!

I never said it wasn't the Russian.

Fist pump - I get what you are saying - I’m just saying that what is (radically) more likely? - the uk assassinating (in a unnecessarily flamboyant manner) a Russian spy we have presumably given safe haven or a Russian state which acts like a gangster the world over and has shown that under putin it does not respect norms of decent behaviour or uphold basic moral standards?

Counterpoint - here’s a hint: we didn’t do it ourselves..,

The Porton Down chief said in that recent interview there was no specific antidote but the lab could advise on generic nerve agent treatment.

Interesting that he also said that there is 'no way anything like that would come from us or leave the four walls of our facility.' Then he talked of the high security there, without saying directly there was no Novichok in the facility.

Counterpoint: Do we know whether nerve agent antidotes have to be the exact fit to each specific nerve agent? It could be a general nerve agent / organo-phosphate antidote.

BoreofWhabylon: But the whole process of bringing them round from sedation could have started much earlier. Det Sgt Nick Bailey was well on the road to recovery, and allowing for the fact that he probably got less of the poison, there has still been time for the Skripals to have recovered after him and start de-briefing.

There was an ex-spy on R4 a week last Friday saying if it had been his operation he would not have broadcast their recovery until after all the interviews were done. And this last Friday a doctor who specialises in nerve agent damage said that if you haven't died within 48 hours your body is basically, thereafter, excreting it, recovering, and you won't get worse and you won't die from it. (Though of course you might die later from the long term effects of the damage.

Heyduggees prove it.

Of course PD will have created nerve agents, at the very least to experiment on it, study it's various qualities and learn how to protect us from it.

Oh good grief it was probably Boris who mentioned antidote. Note to self; use reliable sources.

Besides, if they are so toxic, it would be very difficult to make antibodies to them, no?

This from ncbi:

"Additionally, extensive knowledge on neurotoxic syndromes should stimulate scientific research to produce more effective antidotes and antibodies ( which are still lacking for most neurotoxic weapons ) for rapid administration in aerosolized forms in the case of terrorist or warfare scenarios."

Why suddenly does everyone on this thread assume we have antidotes to Novichock(s) when we are supposedly innocent of their production? We canot make antidote unless we also produce the neurotoxin. If we produce it, we are guilty/implicated!

It could be a general nerve agent / organo-phosphate antidote.

No. Antibodies are more specific than that especially for such non-peptide antigens.

sorry pestilential.

counterpoint - antibodies?!

"and they would have to be pretty specific, not as suggested to any old pesticides/fertilisers"

Could you supply the evidence for that?

Everything that is readily discoverable says that they act in essentially the same way as all other organophosphates (sheep dip, pesticides, other nerve agents, including V series on which they are modelled) and treatments for that poisoning mechanism (regardless of which one of the 'family' was the poison) are the same.

Are you saying it was not Novichok? Or that there is a form of Novichok which is not among the 'known' ones and which acts completely differently?

Again, as a quick example of specificity, from ncbi:

"Botulinum neurotoxin (BoNT) is a highly potent and lethal toxin, which even in minute quantities can lead to death. BoNT occurs in seven well described serotypes, A-G, and it is critical to not only detect the presence of BoNT, but also to determine the serotype to which a person has been exposed , as the degree of toxicity and persistence of symptoms varies greatly between the various types."

Specific treatment
Antidotes to nerve agent poisoning must be given immediately (see below). It should be noted that some Novichok agents have been specifically designed to be resistant to standard nerve agent antidote therapy.

www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent