Is there a thread about the poisoning of Skripal? [title edited by MNHQ]

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I've not seen a thread about it at all, but surely there must be?

The news of the hospitalisation of the police officer was not made public until late yesterday. The press may well have known about it well,before that (just as hospital staff and investigators would have done). But they're pretty good at respecting an embargo until NOK are informed, especially for the emergency services.

Yes sorry that’s what I meant really, not that the press was hushing it up, just that it’s odd it wasn't released sooner as it seems to me one of the major components of the incident. Maybe they didn’t want to panic people?

Is it really that difficult patriachy?

I am out of date but my first thought was sarin/botulinum/tetrodotoxin. There was a series of cases where children got sarin poisoning from chewing castor bean necklaces.

You’ve also got your common or garden pesticides- organophosphates, thions, carbamates, although you’d need bigger doses.

Theses poisons aren’t difficult to make or get hold of. It’s the weaponising/delivery that would need sophistication.

Pretty sure it would have been the fact that the first policeman on the scene was immediately affected that alerted emergency services to it being some sort of nerve agent rather than, for example, a drug overdose.

Years ago, working in A & E, we had a patient brought in following a suicide attempt by ingesting organophosphate weedkiller. It's the same group of chemicals as nerve agents and acts in the same way. The physical effects of OP poisoning are very distinctive. I'm sure I would recognise immediately if I ever saw them again, even after more than 30 years.

We had to do the full hazchem routine and, despite treatment, the patient died horribly.

Thanks Patriarchy :)

Not going to the football was probably something Boris invented on the spot as the worst punishment he could have thought of. Then like a parent who realised the implications of an off the cuff punishment, it was walked back somewhat so that only officials won't be going.

I thought we knew a little about the police officer before hand. There were vague statements about first responders having been taken to hospital and one was still there. They have implied that he only just became seriously ill. I suspect there is a great deal of management to ensure public aren't panicked and I don't blame them. This is not what people in Salisbury need in a million years.

I'm also very impressed that the press have really respected this aspect. The last thing the police officers family need are a media scrum. Remember what it was like for the poor nurse who contracted ebola? I really pray that he is ok.

It has been utterly fascinating to see on twitter 'people' of a certain political persuasion, purportedly from the UK and the States try to claim that it wasn't Russia.

"There was a series of cases where children got sarin poisoning from chewing castor bean necklaces"

I think you might be thinking of ricin (as used to murder Georgiy Markov on Waterloo Bridge in the 1980s) which is a purified/concentrated version of the castor bean toxin.

Bore that's utterly horrendous. It's clearly and understandably left an impression on you. How awful :(

reallyanotherone if it is novichok it was created by the Russians in the 80s. From my brief scan of info via google it does look incredibly sophisticated. Thank goodness!

On Radio 4 Today programme, someone was saying that one theory was that the daughter had brought something (a gift) with her from Russia that contained the poison and was dispersed on opening.

That's an interesting theory. If it is true, then thank goodness she didn't take a quick peek on the airplane.

It did Kitten. And, as I say, the effects are very, very distinctive.

This why I love MN. There is always a knowledgeable person for every subject that is raised.

Me too Ursula. MN is far, far more than penis beaker, AIBU and trolls/trollhunting!

*Specifically because they all do point to Russia.

If you were an opponent of Putin right now, what would you be thinking?*

That the UK are still up to their old tricks.

When these things happen it always feels like a film plot. So sad for those affected and of course their loved ones

reallyanotherone

Its Ricin that you get in Caster beans, which is a naturally occuring neurotoxin. Interestingly there have been terrorist groups that have tried to extract Ricin to use as a weapon in the past, although I believe the difficulty is in getting sufficient quantity and the delivery method.

Yeah Nerve agents were originally developed from insecticides.

Your right that the issue isn't in manufacturing neurotoxins, which is relatively easy, its in increasing lethality, stability and the ability to deliver harmful doses effectively to large groups. Otherwise armies would have just trained to drop insecticides on one another instead of chemical agents.

I'm really interested to see the delivery method and the dose and nature of the agent used, although it might not be made public for a long time.

I was thinking about this while driving to work this morning, I would have expected even a relatively small dose of one of the classic nerve agents released in a shopping centre or crowded public area to have caused a lot more than 3-4 casualties.

R4 has just reported that the policeman is now well enough to talk, although still in intensive care.

Thank goodness!

Also reported the agent was not Sarin or VX. Police not saying if they know how the poison was administered.

was thinking about this while driving to work this morning, I would have expected even a relatively small dose of one of the classic nerve agents released in a shopping centre or crowded public area to have caused a lot more than 3-4 casualties.

Yes. Points to it being rapidly dispersible and only contaminatng the immediate area. Policeman may have come in contact with the agent itself or perhaps body fluids of the affected couple, eg if he attempted first aid, or just droplet spray, eg from contaminated saliva (one of the affects is production of lots of saliva - frothing at the mouth)

counterpoint

If your implying that the UK government have put a hit on a former Russian agent, using a nerve agent to mark it as a russian plot in some kind of false flag operation, then you have been watching too many movies I'm afraid.

The amount of people who have the knowledge and access to correct laboratory equipment to manufacture this kind of stuff in the UK are probably numbered in the low 10s. A hald decent journalist who did a bit of digging could probably track down all of them.

Any operation like that would by necessity involve a lot of people, and the risk of compromise would be huge. Couple that with the thought that if it ever did come out that we had tried to murder a former british agent and his daughter on the UK mainland, in a public place, with an incredibly dangerous chemical agent, it would probably bring down the government and lead to personal prosecutions.

All that just to make Putin look bad? Really?

Who would sign off on an operation like that when you weigh up the risks vs the rewards? I certainly wouldn't.

Further thoughts: policeman may well have instructed others present to keep back while he investigated, due to very odd presentation of the two victims.

Bore

Exactly. It might even be a medical derivation of a Novichok that has been developed specifically for personal administration, although that is just me speculating.

Or it might be something else completely new.

I'm interested to see wht they come out with.

PatriarchyPersonified I want you to be my friend! I want you and Kitten to come around for drinks and chat. Anyone else, like Ursula is very welcome too.

It will be a fascinating evening

I'm on my way.

Further thoughts: this happened in the middle of Salisbury in Wiltshire. Lots of military/ex-military in the area. Also Porton Down not far away.

Entirely possible that others on the scene, becase of their professional background, immediately recognised signs of possible OP poisoning and instructed others to keep back out of harms way.

It would be very enjoyable Bore :)

I saw a timeline that suggested a member of public didn't report this to emergency services for three hours after the pair became ill. Of course we don't know if that is in anyway accurate, but if it is, that's a long time for them to be suffering poor sods.

I'm listening to LBC. Nick Ferrari is fueling the anyone but the Russians story. idiot.