'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

[kalex]

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

Finally Sophia, I need sensible, advice, something that only your 'down to earth' and 'no messing'quality you have, can I phone? Please????

Just back from holiday and catching up will all the news!

Well after waiting 5 months and endless chasing this is the useless reply I had to my letter to Margaret Hodge. So crap I could almost weep!

Dear Ms Grant,

Thank you for your e-mail of 25 February to Margaret Hodge, which has been passed to me for reply. I am sorry it has taken so long to reply to you.

It is a tragedy when parents and children have been wrongly separated. The Court of Appeal?s judgment in the appeal against the conviction of Angela Cannings raises a number of serious questions for councils with social services responsibilities, for looked after children and for their families.

There will be cases in which children were taken into care and subsequently adopted based on the finding of significant harm which turned on disputed medical evidence. The whole basis of adoption is that it ensures permanence and finality to all parties. For that reason, only in the most exceptional circumstances have the courts been prepared to set aside an adoption order. It is not for the government to say whether any of the cases of current concern fall within that category and it would be wrong to give a false impression of the scope for reopening existing adoption cases, when in truth it is extremely rare. That would give false hope to those who might wish to argue that the original adoption was based on flawed evidence. It would risk causing distress to adopted families where children are happily settled. In every individual case the adoption order and issues of contact with adoptees will turn on its own particular facts, and parties must seek their own advice on both. .

As a result of the new Adoption Support Regulations every local authority is required to have an adoption support adviser. This may be an appropriate initial contact for concerned birth parents, adoptive parents and adopted children. If parents choose not to contact the adoption support adviser, they will need to take their own legal advice on their own individual position and that of a number of organisations that provide support for such parents.

Yours sincerely,

Ann Barker
Adoption Management Team
Looked After Children Division
Department for Education and Skills
Telephone number: 020 7972 4076
e-mail address: [email protected]

Please don't take this personally Soapbox, and THANK YOU for writing, but this must be about the 5th time I have seen this letter, I think she got a load printed up with bits where she could fill in name etc.
I have heard that if she hears any more of my case she will scream.....well scream away Mrs Hodge, 'cos I'm not going anywhere! She has in fact started telling people to tell me to get legal advice! I wonder if I asked her if she would like to meet me, we have soooo much to talk about and then she might be at breaking point and even resign!!!!.
I am sorry but for some reason she always makes me feel sarcastic! What does a minister for children do?
I did contact the adoption after care where I live and they basically said, well it's not really us you need to talk to, why don't you go back and speak to the adoption after care team in the area responsible for the adoption of your children, they will have all the details. So, I phoned, did not give my name, (I was not feeling that brave!) and they told me I was the 'problem' of the area I live in now, and their services are mainly for the adoptees. I am afraid I put the phone down, as I was feeling rather angry at the time, so I did not do much to help myself. Still that was several months ago and I have decided that I am a 'problem' that everyone wishes would go away, that is if they have anything to do with Social Services.
But Thank you again to everyone who wrote, you obviously had an effect, and in all honesty I think it was a 'good' effect, because it has made the minister for children realise that there is a problem, and that it is not going to be swept under the carpet, hopefully.

Long and sympathetic article from the Telegrapgh yesterday - here - by Cassandra Jardine. This poor couple went through all the same hoops as all the others.

Bunglie, don't read it, you will scream more than Ms Hodge at hearing your name again. (I am sooo thrilled that she is saying that. It's just how I feel when I hear her unctuous tones on the radio!) You are really making an impact now, bunglie. They can't go on ignoring you.

Oh - just followed the link at the bottom and realise it's part 2 of the one lunarsea linked to on Monday. The link at top right is good too.

hmm, I feel a letter to Margaret Hodge coming on...

Someone mentioned to me the Telegraph article and they said, 'don't read it'.
Thank you for confirming that, because I do (as you know often get myself all upset when I could avoid it.....now I can avoid it and stay happy....... Thank you Janh

I have been 'talking' to another mum accused of MSbP, I have suggested that she join us here for support, I told her you would give her a warm welcome as you have the rest of us. I hope that she feels able to as I think that your support for me, Spudbrain, and Cheeseball has honestly changed our lives and knowing you are not alone is one thng but knowing that 'ordinary'(or normal!) mothers are prepared to support us is something that I can not put into words, but it gives me anice warm feeling inside.

Now come on you lot, Is ANY ONE interested in the Rally at Trafalgar Square on 28th Aug at 2pm. All the family are welcome as the emphasis is on PEACEFUL, and you could make a day out of it in London and play 'Spot Bunglie'! Just to confuse you I might bring friends in spare wheelchairs and buggies, all wearing dark glasses...! We could then all go and see if Mrs Hodge would like to come out for afternoon tea with us, perhaps you would like to put an invite in your letter to her MeanBean .

Enough sarcasm for one day, back to work....uhg!

You are very welcome, bunglie!

btw I'm sorry, I forgot to say very best wishes to both Spudbrain and Cheeseball, things seem to be working out brilliantly, I hope they carry on that way. It's so good to know that Cheeseball is now free to say what she wants when she wants.

(Am ignoring the cheesy spud image though, thanks )

I am so happy to hear that things are looking up for Spudbrain and Cheeseball (though I do have to question your name picking abilities...I like your image bunglie...) Do either of you need anything? Clothes, food, a job? Maybe a mumsnetter could help somewhere with these things.
Bunglie, please call me. If you can manage it after 9pm I will have the children in bed. Or if it can wait until tomorrow, it's my day off and I am free all day (well sort of...I'll be running errands, doing shopping, berating the builders etc. etc.).

I too have found that I have had to stop reading and listening to articles because I just get too angry and start to rant and rave whereever I might be and if I keep it up I won't have a job anymore. I had a big go at my boss yesterday when he started to make rude comments about israel (I am 1/2 jewish and he likes to provoke me) and what an evil oppressive state it is. I retorted by saying that at least they weren't oppressing their own people and that in this country there are more children that have unjustly been taken away from their parents than there are palestinians that have been killed by israel. Totally unrelated of course, but it shut him up and clearly shows that I can't seem to get the topic of msbp out of my mind.

Hi eveybody,
Im a newbie to this site (invited here by bunglie) thank you bunglie..
Im afraid I dont really say much about myself or family publically as im afraid my case will be recognised.. I live in exile and speak to no-one out side of the home unless I have to so as to keep my child with me...

I have enjoyed every minute of reading your posts and the expressions used.. You see I no longer live in the Uk We are living in an isolated town so dont hear much chat anyway.. its a small price to pay for my family to be together..

Ive spent the last two days reading all your previouse postings and catching up to date as much as I can your discussion..

I would first like to say on the lawyer/solicitor subject and the keeping of files, If you check (Ombudsman) you'll find that the law firms only have to keep your files for a six year period, some firms (and this is personal choice, not law) for 10 or so... they are then distroyed..That does not apply to personal items of the client though.... my case of MSBP is still quite new in comparison to most as it has only been four and a half years.. I have just writen to my ex-lawyer asking for my files as I dont want them distroyed..

Secondly any reports made regarding you Bunglie are for refrance only.. for the court, SS and yourself or case concerned parties.. Fact: to release a report writen about you individually to anyone not involved in you being assesed or apearing in court and because of the confidentuality laws permission must be given by a judge for the reports to be released about you to be shown to anyone and the person they wish to show them to normally have to be named individually in an order from the judge... Ask to see the paperwork/order granted by the judge that is allowing this information to be given to your children ??

Since the adults concerning the children are using SS lawyers to assist them in stressing upon you their opinions and requests.. have your lawyer stress your request for information on your behalf to the department SS, the adults responsible for the children and their lawyers as to what if any counselling/therapy has been put in place to assist these children with understanding the information being thrust at them with-out a second thought to the mental torment this can cause.. (emotional abuse)!!
Just my opinion of course

As for thinking adults recognise you on this site, I'll tell you alot of Social Workers and medical employees, Dr's, reporters etc, come to all of family or accused abusers sites.. Just as i go to the Social Worker site and read their ideas and posts.. These are open forums for posting so professionals will come and read what is said about them too .... And the things said can amount to quite alot on times as many mothers and public members feel the justice system and Social Workers make all thses cases harder and have no compassion..

which leads to my question? Does anyone know about, or has heard about any one single Social Worker who has actually stood out against the opinions of their fellow Social Workers and persisted with the truth that could assist one of these mothers losing their children??? Like actually believed there was an injustice say ... made someone listen..?? Or is it always as it was with myself "guitly" in the eyes of the SS nothing else.??. no room for an error!!!!

I do hope I haven't bored you with my opinions and information offered... I thought they may be of intrest to someone...

Take care and be safe all

Hi IKNT, and welcome to the site. I am so glad to hear that you have managed to keep your child with you, but sad of course that you have had to bear the burden of false accusations.

Welcome InnKogNeeToe (IKNG for short!), I hope that you can see that this really is something that 'ordinary' mums did not realise was happenning and yet they have not judged us but have helped us and supported us, this has restored my faith in society and helped keep my sanity, truthfully.

I am sorry, but I know you are probably glad that this is not gong to be a long Bunglie posting, but I am a bit pushed for time still, however I promised that I would post the following email I got today.....

"Bunglie, would you please thank all the mums on Mumsnet from Cheeseball and me for their support, help and concern. We are both now hopefully 'sorted' and things have worked out well but without the sensible advice from MNers we would probably still be in our abusive relationships. We have found mutual support and I hope a friendship that lasts with each other. Cheeseball is going to do the 'laundry' so she can use the laptop and tell you how we are doing, hopefully it wont be too long before I can get on line at the library or something.
Cheeseball is moving into the hostel I have been living in but I have now been offered temp. accommodation by a housing association, only a bedsit but it will be mine and hopefully after 6 months they will make it permenant. Now I will have an address etc I am going back to college in Sept. and I hope to do some GCSE's and then maybe an access course. Thank you all again for giving me (us) the courage to change our lives for the better.
Love Spudbrain XX"

I love it when a plan comes together! (To much watching TV, the A-Team I think wasn't it)

IKNT, well done for escaping! I hope your new life with your family altogether is working out for you.

Just got this from my MP. To be honest I had thought he had given up as it has been so long since I had heard anything and he was a bit negative and tolfd me that when he spoke to "Margaret" (Hodge) she had said that I shouldget legal advice as there was nothing she could do!

Then this just arrived....

"Dear (Bunglie),

I work for Jim up in London. We raised your case with the Department for Constitutional Affairs and have received an interim reply today. This department is addressing concerns about the adoption and Wardship proceedings. In order to proceed the department needs the relevant information so that they can identify the courts or courts in which those proceedings took place. In addition, a case number if possible.

I would be very grateful if you could confirm the following when you have a moment.

Best wishes,

Well, I take back all I had been thinking, it seems I do have an MP who wants to help

Wow some amazing developments, such strength of womanhood in here, such maternal fortitude...
Make sone proud to be able to call MN home. It is so important to hear triumphs, however small...
Well done to all of you who have had to fight for what we all take for granted at times.
Big hugs and like Sofia said, if anyone needs food, donations, clothing anything at all, we will rally around.. it would be a pleasure.
xx piff

Second everything Piffle said (do you mind if I call you Piffle?).
And welcome IKNT, it's good to hear that you managed to keep your children even if in very difficult circumstances.
So happy to hear about Cheeseball and Spudbrain, that really is excellent news. More power to their elbows!
And Bunglie, yes, of course, I'm planning to come to the rally although I haven't warned dh yet. Oh well, he'll just have to toe the line because there is NO WAY I am missing this one.
Apologies Bunglie if I appear to dip in and out, have to snatch moments now I'm in a new job (and am supposed to be working right now, oops). But do email me!

Hello all, thank you for your kind welcomes..
Yes bunglie I can see exactlly what you mean at how suportive and understanding odinary everyday mothers are towards many wrongfully accused, MSBP mothers plights..
This is most amazing .. strangers understand and hear what is beeing said yet SS seem to ignor all said, or maybe they have selective hearing toward a wrongly accused MSBP mum...

I have no family both parents are passed away now although I never really knew my mother she passed away when I was very young...
All my friends of nearlly 20yrs stopped all contact when this accusation was made... So WOW well done everyday MUMs for haveing some belief, faith and the courage to speak out and support those who so badly need it..
There is no thank you big enough for what you all do for so many who need it THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH..
ooopppsss I have somthing stuck in my teeth there hahaha

I dont think in my first post I explained myself very well (not really used to talking about me sorry) but I did lose my child for a 2yr period and managed to leave the UK (after this 2yrs) with my child because of a sloppy oversight of the SS (thank god) and my family (child and I) have been in hiding since, which has been 2yrs now...

And yes we are doing fine.... said child is a teenager now..
I have to say though .. that if I had been believed about the information I gave SS about my childs father and if they had taken my requests about accommodation into any kind of consideration.... just an inch of belief then the oversight would not have occured and I would be still without my child..
So due to their belief I was a liar and as they said in a report.."they didnt feel mum had anything to contribute and because of the nature of the problem, nothing mum said would be considered" they messed up!!!!

My child has recieved counselling to help come to terms with what happened and the effect it has had on our lives.. When my child comes home from school each day... a new escape route and plan of where they will be for me to find them should the SS ever turn up at school (as they had previously) and try to take them.. each day a diffrent plan made so to be safe....

We are doing Ok and life is very diffrent now, my view of all professionals is totally diffrent and my trust in the Justice system is nill...
all the way through the case I kept telling myself be honest and tell the truth, jump through hoops if they ask it of you, and the law will provail the truth will come out...
But it never did........

anyway feel as though im rambling now...
so..
take care and be safe ALL.. AND THANK YOU!!
InnKogNeeToe

IKNT, I feel sad for you, this is not meant in a condescending way but what a stress this must be on yours and chour childs life? Having to make a daily plan, just in case the SS catch up with you. Not being able to trust anyone and looking over your shoulder all the time.

You should be enjoying the joys of being a mother, and your child should be enjoying their time with you without fear of loosing you at any point. You have my admiration because you must be a strong person to have had the courage to flee from the SS, and also to live with this uncertainty on a daily basis. I have to ask, is their anything that any of us can do to help make things easier? I am sure that you have explored all avenues but if there is anything you know how to contact me.

Please do join in with some of the other conversations,as Beetroot suggests. I did not for ages and used to only come to this thread, but now I have taken the plunge to join in it is great. Use another 'chat name' if you want, (I don't so everyone knows about my knickers, and all), but it is good to 'talk' to other mums and you can do that here. It sounds as if you don't have anyone you can really talk to about everyday stuff and I am sure that you must have some useful advice to pass on to some of the mums about bringing up their little angels. You say yours is now a teenager, so perhaps they can help you when the teenage 'stroppy bit starts'. However, it sounds like you have an exceptionally strong mother/child bond.

A word of warning, Mumsnet IS addictive, but it is an addiction I believe worth having and enjoying!!!

Love and hugs Bunglie.

Postsue........where are you.....push 'innocenteyes' off the computer and give us an update.....please, pretty please, OK Pretty please with an 'ice pop'

Ahg! Just read the Southall thread, I am so upset, but I should not be, I am sorry to say that I always tried to have some faith in our judicial system etc. although they failed me, and others like me, but THIS.....How can they justify not striking him off?

Sorry I just felt I had to put something here, but I suggest comments go to the Southall Guilty thread HERE

Hi all
Hope you are all well? You are all such kind people.. I feel very lucky to be able to chat with you all... I have never known such warmth and kindness... thank you all..

Beetroot, sorry about my rambling....
First can I say, that I have a son, and as you now know in his teens... (and he is already at that difficult back chatting stage lol....... and its great, the best feeling in the world having my son be cheeky to me).. He laughs more now, its taken 18months of the last 2yrs to get the relationship and trust to some form of normality, but we're getting there..

I am always worried about being located, Im so weary of most things now... so I ask that you please forgive me for not telling you I also have a daughter and she was almost 16 when it happened, she was taken also...

what I was trying to explain earlier beetroot, and not very well, was that I had asked the SS NOT to place my son with his father, as he was a violent and bad tempered man..
My daughter knew how her father was and refused to be placed there, but they put my son there even though we had begged and begged SS not to..
they said I was probably lying about the abuse in the marriage and they said my daughter was mirroring me, and didnt believe a word either of us told them.

My ex told SS he would only accomoate his son if they paid all his expenses as he was not willing to change his life in any way to assist the SS..
shocking hu? he has 2 jobs his girlfriend works full time and he kept the home we left with nothing and they paid him to look after his son..

anyway the error I refer to was.... because I had left the UK 4 months before the case was complete (this due to what I had been told by SW.. which was that I was in a catch 22 situation, because my son had quite high dosage of asthma medication, and if I gave him the dosage I was told to it was MSBP and that care orders would be sought and if I didnt give it, then it would be seen as neglect and care orders would be sought.. as I had refused my son relief of his asthma)
they gave residence to ex (who really doesnt like kids) SS felt because I was no longer in the UK that I wasnt a threat to my son any more so they only applied for a supervision order...
As soon as the order expired..
ex contacted me and told me if I gave him 2000 pounds I could come collect my son...(was comming for my daughter anyway) so I did...
I would have given my life to have them safe..

as for the route planning, its not me that does that, my son does.. hes terrified of being taken again, so makes plans of how to get away from them and tells me where he will be so I can find him and go pick him up...
My daughter was self harming while under SS care, she was given no counselling and never had anyone try and explain what happened and why..
(my son still has nightmares over his treatment while in his fathers home)

Both children have had some help now to come to terms with what they went through, and although left with scars my daughter no longer self harms.. But she will not take her daughter to see a Dr, she gets her partners mother to do it, she thinks Dr's may do the same to her, or say she's like me and stuff...(so she still suffers because of what they did to her)

I hope this explains things a little better...
I contacted SS via email and asked for a review of our case and they have refused and refused, so I wrote and asked what the position would be should I return to the Uk since my son had now been in my care safely for over 2yrs..
and also the police had said they found no eveidence so were no longer going to be involved in this case and were not going to arrest me..

They wrote back saying no review! and that they would have to investigate again due to the nature and severity of my disorder, and that my son would need to be accomodated, (oh and this is a good one... they would welcome my input regarding the care of my son) then right at the end "could you send us your current address"..
as If i was going to write and give them that info??...... who in their right frame of mind would??

Again I say thank you all for letting me have my moan here, havent done it in so long.. dont remember when I last had the opportunity to get it out of my system..
Phewww thats better....

thank you all for letting me do that..
I so hope I havent sent you all to sleep with my winging..
promise to be good from now on......

Take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

hello
have just read this thread and am upset and outraged -im lost for words dont know what to sayexcept that i wish to add my humble support to you all of you here-godbless to you all
(what can i do to help would a letter to MH be any use?)would like to do anything i can to help

Tinytoes, Thank you. Yes please do write to Mrs Hodge, and if you can manage it to your MP. In the past we have found that emails don't always seem to get through, although some do! Can I respectfully suggest that if you would like to write (and we would love you to), that you send an email, the address can be found HERE . Then if you print off a hard copy and post it you can be certain that they have it, (and 2 copies are better than one, if they both get through!!!). If you want to I am perfectly happy for you to use my case as an example if you would like. But I would not dream of suggesting that you wrote entirely about my case or anything like that. I think it is more important to point out that the reviews Mrs Hodge asked for have not been done and that the draconian legal system, that 'gags' us from speaking out ourselves, is out dated. There is a lot more that I could put to help you, but I recall that someone, I think Aloha? wrote an excellent synopsis of a letter that is somewhere on one of the previous threads I shall see if I can find it, just come across this one by I think Soapbox? Sorry if I am wrong, but it is an excellent letter also;

Dear Mrs Hodge

The Roy Meadows situation distresses me enormously. I can't begin, though, to imagine how distressing it must be for the parents involved. I have been listening carefully to two specific cases relating to this debacle and have the following points to make:

1. This subject is, I consider, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice to take place in our country in recent times.

2. The Government, and you, are not acting proactively enough to ensure a swift and full inquiry into all the cases concerned.

3. It is inequitable in the extreme to deny those parents of children who have been adopted proper access to their children. This I consider to be a gross abuse of these parents' and their childrens' human rights.

4. In reaching the decision not to review 'settled' cases you are making sweeping assumptions about the happiness of the children within the adoptive family. Many adopted children do not lead lives of bliss in their new families, more so when they have been told that they were removed from their parents because they were deliberately harming them.

5. There is no equitable solution for all in this distressing situation. However, one must strive harder that you to find compromises that satisfy the needs of all parties.

6. You cannot and must not wipe your hands of the families who have suffered terribly as a result of the flawed expertise of this man. Justice must be made available to all, including settled cases. The children and parents deserve this. Just because something falls into the 'too difficult box' doesn't absolve those in power, i.e. you, from addressing it.

7. Not specifically a point for you, but it is vital that the modus operandi of the family courts is reviewed and radically overhauled as a matter of priority. This should include performance evaluations of those judges sitting in those cases where despite strong evidence to the contrary, over reliance was placed in Mr Meadows opinion in reaching their judgement. Steps to be taken to ensure these judges do not sit on family court matters in the future.

8. The Court Orders prohibiting those parents affected by these cases should be withdrawn with immediate effect. The parents should be advised to apply to the court immediately to have them overturned. Only then can a full and transparent debate be allowed.

9. In those cases where children are settled with their adopted parents, as an initial step, parents should have the right to write to their children explaining in an age appropriate way that there has been a miscarriage of justice in their case.

10. Once the cases have been reviewed those that are found to be sullied and tarnished by Mr Meadow?s opinions should be given special status. The parents involved in these cases should be given access rights to their children similar to those of non-resident fathers (or parents). I suggest building up over a period of not more than a year to one weekend every fortnight and half of the holidays. This is not viewed as disruptive to a child?s life in the case of contact orders so I presume it will not be viewed as disruptive for a child to spend time with their natural parents. Caseworkers need to be involved in ensuring this is handled sensitively but firmly.

So to summarise. I consider that the Government is attempting to evade its responsibilities to parents of children affected by the flawed evidence of Roy Meadow. Those parents of children in settled cases require a settlement that is equitable to them but sensitive to the new adoptive family. My proposals as set out above will enable this to happen.

I would like a response to my email, I appreciate you will probably be receiving quite a few emails of this sort at the present time, but I do consider responding to communication from ones electorate only basic courtesy.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Great letter IMO, I hope it helps you.

I think it is important though that since this letter ws written, Dr David southall has been exposed, for not only the Clarke case, and the baby ventilator scandal, (see Southall thread!!) but he also falsley diagnosed mothers with MSbP and used covert video surveliance. So it is not just Meadow, but there are several doctors out there known as the 'munch bunch' I believe, who have been acting as expert witnesses saying mothers have this illness that they clearly do not have, as a result hundreds of children have been separated from their parents and released for adoption. We as the parents of our 'lost' children' are prevented from speaking out, so we rely on others and if you are willing to write I wish I could offer you and all the other mums that have written, more than my thanks, as it hardly seems adequate.
Love Bunglie

thanks bunglie
willdo