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'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

356 replies

kalex · 22/07/2004 20:24

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

OP posts:
MummyToSteven · 10/08/2004 09:45

The Department of Constitutional Affairs is the new name for the Lord Chancellors Dept, the government office in charge of the courts. Their url is: www.dca.gov.uk/.

InnKogNeeToe · 10/08/2004 10:07

Hi all u mumsneters

Thank you Piffleoffagus for your offer of assistance.. I am still so amazed and over whelmed by the offers from all who post on this thread.. I am so very very greatfull to you all... you wonderfull people..

Bunglie thank you again .... youve been a great help.. wonderfull in fact.......

absolutly wonderfull to hear good news about how well people are doing.. well done both spudbrain and cheeseball... I hope that only good things happen for you both...

Thank you postsue, I will be writing to you a little later, but for now I have a teenager needing the puter...
which is my cue to leave and I will catch up again later..

to all of mumsnet
take care and be safe
InnKogNeeToe

InnKogNeeToe · 10/08/2004 10:11

I must start proof reading my posts.. just re-read the last one...

a lot of wonderful things there dont you think hahaha

Bunglie · 10/08/2004 10:21

Thanks M27, Dare I ask what does/did the Lord chancellors dept. do? In simple English

MummyToSteven · 10/08/2004 10:25

DCA (LCD) as was is generally in charge of running the courts from an admin and procedural point of view - e.g. in charge of the various procedural rules governing all types of court cases. Am i still talking lawyerese - feel free to give me a virtual smack if so!! For example, when I was working, I would check the LCD website for updates to the Civil Procedure Rules, or where there had been a particularly bad court listing cock-up, someone at work might mutter dark thoughts about the possibility of complaining/obtaining compensation from the Lord Chancellors Department!

Bunglie · 10/08/2004 10:39

ICKT - Thankyou for the kind words, but you will make my head swell and then I won't be able to get my knickers on!!!!

I am glad that you found our little thread, and have felt you have received support, as I said it has kept me on the straight and narrow and helped keep my sanity.

Just got a wedding invite from the US, for the 28th August......I thought about it for a second but then thought "no" because I shall be in London on that day, still working on a disguise, any suggestions?

Bunglie · 10/08/2004 10:42

So, M27, have I got this right. This dept, sort of regulates the courts to check that there were no mistakes or anything and that the Judges etc are following the correct proceedures etc. So if there was any kind of 'mistake'in my case it would be this dept who would check it out and maybe do something about it???
Or have I got it all wrong???

sleeplessmum2be · 11/08/2004 10:20

A message for spudbrain or anyone else in need. I have some old yellow and white cottagy curtains. They are exceptional quality if a bit old and you are welcome to them. Im located just outside North London and you can come get them or we can arrange a transfer through whoever, whatever, whenever. I would love for you to make use of them if they are what you want or need. I will need to know asap as i am imminently having a baby and will be out of touch for a little while. Let me know and HUGE congratulations and massive good luck for the new leg of your Journey in Life!!!

SpudBrain · 11/08/2004 16:46

Hiya,
Spuddy here. It took me ages to find the library and it closes at 5pm so I am going to have to be quick. Thanks for the card Bunglie, I used that (my first bit of post!!) and my rent book for proof of where I live so as to join here.Incogneto, thanks for the info on the grants. I have applid for 2 and the worker s at the hostel where Cheesy is says that I should get them. Thanks a million Sleepless mum2be, but I think I am sorted now. I just can't get over the suppot from you all, thanks again.
I miss Having to cook for everyone, I don't miss being on the washing up rota though!! I always used to do Angel Delight when it was my turn, they buy it by the boxful there and so it was an easy pudding and the kids loved it. I miss it and I am afraid I sometimes can't be bothered to cook just for me, I seem to eat snacks all day long or when I am hungry....I must try and get into a routine.
Well thanks alot averyone and hope to be able to write more next time.
Love Spudbrain XXX

Bunglie · 12/08/2004 14:52

Glad to see that you have settled in well Spuddy, I am very upset that you do not seem to be eating properly. I know that you are intelligent enough not to need a lecture, but if you just do yourself one meal a day, it doesn't have to have a pud with it, but you can get some ok frozen meals I believe just for one.
Beleive me when I say I DO UNDERSTAND, it is hard when you live on your own, and sometimes time does not even mean much, you go to bed when you are tired and eat when you are hungry because you have no one else to think about but yourself.
The only bit of info I shall give you is, did you know that if you do not get regular sleep or eat properly the chemicals in your brain can change and cause depression?
I think you have had enough sadness in your life and we all love hearing your news of how this new chapter is going for you. Please do keep us informed and keep well and look after yourself.
End of lecture.......It's only because we care.
I am glad that the grant info got to you, Incogneeto sent it to me, I sent it to Cheesy and she obviously got it to you really quickly...wow what a network we seem to have going here.
I think I shall send you a packet of Angel Delight and get Cheesy to check your cupboards and report back to us, so ne warned...
Love Bunglie

Bunglie · 12/08/2004 15:04

Incogneeto,
Obviously we do not know the country you are in, and do not want to know, that is your buisness and for your safety. However, it has set me thinking, is it just this country that has an MSbP problem because Meadows and Southall were British?
I remember ages ago seeing a film on 'Hallmark' that was American and it was about a mother who had MSbP, I was shocked, at the time and thought well if she really did do that she is ill, as they said it was based on a true story, but I can't remember the name of the film.
It set me wondering whether it is just this country that has a problem?
Please don't do anything to divulge where you are, but what is the 'attitude' towards MSbP where you are?
Does anyone know if this is just a problem in the UK, or is it worldwide, and we are just not addressing it, or are other countries in the same position?
Sorry I have asked lots of questions, but I am just curious. I read the link put by Janz on the 'Southall Guilty' thread, and it set me off again feeling angry, but I wonder why this case went so un-observed when it is really horifying?
Enough now, just had a phone call from the AF, but more about that later when I have calmed down!!!
Bunglie XX

LunarSea · 12/08/2004 15:18

Another Roy Meadow trial mother has been freed - this from the Sunday Mercury :

How could have I killed my babies? Aug 8 2004

By Fionnuala Burke, Sunday Mercury

Julie Ferris enjoyed her first full day of freedom yesterday and said: ?My nightmare is over - now I can start rebuilding my life.?

Then the 34 year-old whispered softly: ?I loved Hayley and Brandon so much. How could they ever have believed that I killed my babies??

Julie, from Aston in Birmingham, was charged with the murder of her two children in December, 1998.

Nine month-old Hayley died in 1993 and doctors originally suspected that she was a tragic victim of cot death.

But when Brandon also passed away in May, 1998, at the age of eight months, the loving mum was arrested.

The case against her was eventually heard at Birmingham Crown Court in June, 2000.

But Julie, who has learning difficulties, was forbidden from making a plea and arguing her innocence because prosecutors claimed she had a mental age of just six years old.

She was detained indefinitely under the Mental Health Act after Professor Roy Meadow, the now discredited paediatrician, testified that he believed Julie had smothered her children.

The Sunday Mercury became the first newspaper in Britain to raise doubts about the case in March, 2001, when we launched a campaign to win Julie a retrial.

We had discovered how her children could have been victims of a rare form of epilepsy, which runs in the Ferris family.

We also traced new witnesses who said that they had seen the children having fits before their deaths - while Julie was out of the room.

Our investigation led to new solicitors being appointed in the case and in the summer of 2002 Julie was finally released on bail pending a fresh trail due to take place in November this year.

But on Friday afternoon her solicitor received a letter from the Crown Prosecution Service stating that all charges had been dropped.

She was finally a free woman - judged innocent at last.

Now the tragic mum could win a huge compensation pay-out for the four terrible years she suffered in custody.

Last night Julie, who has had the names of her babies tattooed on her arm, said: ?Prof Meadow is the one who should be sectioned.

?I was detained under the Mental Health Act and spent four years in bail hostels, secure units, hospitals and in prison.

?I was dragged around the country, miles away from my family. I was branded a child-killer and beaten up by other inmates because of what he said.

?At one stage the authorities even told me I would never be free unless I agreed to be sterilised to stop me having more children.

?I refused because I knew I was innocent.?

Julie, one of 13 children, lives with her 72 year-old mum Mary, who has stood by her throughout her ordeal.

Her sister Betty, 50, who has led the campaign to clear Julie?s name with the help of the Sunday Mercury, said: ?This has split our family.

?People trust what doctors and police officers say, but I always knew how much Julie loved those kids and I knew she would never harm them.

?She has been to hell and back because these so-called professionals failed to do their jobs properly. They have scarred my sister?s life forever.

?She had to be put on 24-hour suicide watch while she was in prison because she was so traumatised. She has tried to kill herself on several occasions.

?We were never going to give up until Julie?s name was cleared.

Thank God it finally has been. But we?ve got a lot of work to do to help her get fully back on track with her life.?

Julie had taken Hayley and Brandon to hospital on a number of occasions after they both suffered convulsions.

A post-mortem examination into Hayley?s death found she that had choked on her own vomit from a fit.

But pathologists also noted that blood was found in her nostrils, which subsequently raised suspicions and an open verdict was recorded at an inquest.

No full inquest has ever been held into the cause of Brandon?s death. Yet neither baby had ever appeared on a social services register of children at risk and it was only after Brandon died that Julie was arrested.

Julie was initially charged with double murder and remanded in custody. The charges were later reduced to manslaughter.

A jury at Birmingham Crown Court was told that she had ?severe intellectual limitations? that meant she ?could not participate in any meaningful sense in a trial?.

Nonetheless, the jury was asked to determine whether Julie had killed her children in a sub-sequent trial of the facts.

They decided that she had. She was made the subject of a hospital order and detained indefinitely.

Evidence given by Sir Roy Meadow is said to have heavily influenced their decision.

The former president of the British Association of Paediatrics testified that Hayley and Brandon showed classic signs of being smothered.

Asked what the chances were of Brandon dying from an epileptic fit five years after Hayley died the same way, Meadow said: ?It is very unlikely.?

Testimonies from the so-called ?expert witness? also helped secure the convictions of innocent mums Sally Clark and Angela Cannings. Both have subsequently been cleared of killing their children.

The collapse of the cases and criticisms of Meadow?s evidence by the Court of Appeal recently led the Attorney General to order a review of 258 child-protection cases he had been involved in.

The retired 71 year-old is also being investigated by General Medical Council.

Last night Julie recalled her ?trial?. ?I couldn?t believe what was going on,? she said.

?They were talking about me as if I wasn?t there and there was nothing I could do.

?I was so upset that Brandon and Hayley had died and they were trying to say it was my fault.?

The Portia Campaign, which fights for victims of injustice, said Julie never got a fair hearing because she was banned from giving evidence due to the ruling on her mental age.

Following the Sunday Mercury?s ?Justice For Julie? campaign, she won a judicial review of her case in London?s Court of Appeal.

Her new trial was due to take place in November but on Friday she received the phone call she thought would never come from her solicitor Andrew Wesley.

He told the Sunday Mercury: ?I have received a letter from the Crown Prosecution Service saying that, following a review, they are not going to pursue Julie?s case.

?There will now be one final court hearing to say officially that they will no longer be seeking to say that she was responsible for the deaths of her two children.?

Julie is looking forward to starting her life all over again.

?I can?t believe this battle is over, but I know we haven?t reached the end of the road yet,? she said.

?There are still many questions that need answering.

?Even on Friday, after I got the call from my solicitor, someone shouted ?child-killer? from a car as it drove past my house.

?But I and the people who really know me have always known the truth.?

Bunglie · 12/08/2004 17:24

Thanks Lunarsea. Amazng!

How can they keep ignoring us and say that our cases do not fit the criteria for review?

I am afraid that I feel that hostility towards the authorities, no matter how hostile I feel, does not work. No one wants to give you information if they feel under threat etc, so I am trying to perfect my 'oozing treacle' approach, and then I go and take my frustration out on something else.

I think that if you are nice to others they will be nice to you. You don't have to be fake about it, but if I get up feeling frustrated with the world I have a 'Be nice to everyone day' This has always been a general philosophy of mine but it is getting hard at the moment, I sometimes feel like a 'coiled spring' and want to yell from the roof tops.

How do you all cope? I think I need a few pointers in being constructive.

postsue · 12/08/2004 20:57

BUNGLIE...............................

Don't know if someone answered this but the film is called "A Shilds's Cry for Help" and stared (trying to think of her "swear jar" name Woman (obviously) lang brown hair like shelly long and diane keaton. Nope gone, brains left the building.

Incogneetoe, trying to download attatchment but will if its the last "swear jar again bunglie" thing i do today.

Sure you don't need more coathangers cheesie and spuddie, they are coming out of my ears???????

catch up soon

Sleep tight all............

Bunglie · 13/08/2004 11:25

Just incase you are all wondering what Postsue is going on about, yes we know she is bonkers, but.....
I have a "swear jar",
Fine schedule is
S-words 10p
B-words 20p
F-words 50p

Get the idea.....Post sue you will get the bill at the end of the month!!

InnKogNeeToe · 13/08/2004 19:05

Bunglie..

There are a few cases of labeled MSBP, and a few of suspected MSBP, but the procedure here is that SS do a risk assesment on the individual and 6 months of weekly meeting with the person and seeing them with their children (whilst the child/children are accomodated and then concluding if the child is in danger or not, and returning the child/children home all being well.. There are few cases that reach the courts anyway, and our family courts are open courts. Other states in this country though, have used UK DR's when suspecting MSBP (southall)and there seem to be large amounts of cases in these states.
Any cases of suspected MSBP that do reach the courts are more likely to use UK Dr's as the expert whitness
MSBP is not publisised much here, so its rarely heard about... Hope this information helps...

Postsue, if your having probs opening the file contact me and i'll send it a diffrent way...

take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

Bunglie · 15/08/2004 20:08

Thanks IKNT.

It is really hard for me to comprehend. A syndrome, that is a bit 'iffy' and the experts are all (or mainly) from the UK, but have been discredited, and yet it STILL perpetuates in the mind of the Social Services.

Either the world (certainly the UK), has gone barmy or I need to put back on that nice new jacket, the one with the pretty straps, with buckles that do up at the back!

I do find it hard to understand why 'they' just can't admit that they got it wrong, they took our children and rather than let us tell the truth they gag us. I have even been threatened from saying anything to my children! or my MP?

I have to ask though, if 'they' can't use MSbP, which is something you can not defend yourself from as everything you do or say can be construed as a symptom. You therefore can never win, and the Social Services have a sure fire way of getting your children. What are they going to use next? Maybe that is why they are so reluctant to 'give up the label', and admit they were wrong?

Oh I don't know, sorry I am having a bit of a moan. I don't understand why they persist and will not admit that if the experts were wrong, then they are wrong to.

The problem is 'Once labelled, always labelled' and it would be nice not to feel as if you are not a threat or risk to others, especially your own children.

Am I making sense?

MummyToSteven · 15/08/2004 20:27

Bunglie - just seen your posting of 10th August sorry for ignoring you! I'm not sure how far the DCA would take an interest in the details of particular cases - I think they would see it as being up to the Court of Appeal/House of Lords to deal with Judge's mistakes in cases, and that the DCA would deal things on more of a general level - i.e. working on changes in rules/procedures and on recruitment of judges, or disciplining judges who have behaved badly. I'm sure though that if you wrote to the DCA they would at least point you in the right direction if they didn't feel it was appropriate for them to deal with it.

MummyToSteven · 15/08/2004 20:30

Bunglie - you are making complete sense. I feel like Social Services are using labels to justify their decisions - a bit like with the satanic abuse cases. I agree that in view of the labelling that has taken place, there should be a review of cases even where adoption orders aren't going to be overturned, to clear people's names and to remove any restrictions on their contact with children/vulnerable people - this will surely at the very least improve people's employment prospects.

Bunglie · 15/08/2004 20:36

Thanks M27 you've made me feel better.

It was my MP by the way who contacted he DCA and said they wanted some info, like courts and case numbers etc. I was not sure why he contacted them though.

LunarSea · 15/08/2004 21:45

Bunglie - I'd guess that this is because you mentioned to your MP that the wardship procedings were in the High Court, , and that the case had been reserved by a High COurt judge, but the Adoption was in a local court, which is not the normal state of affairs. They are probably looking at whether the correct procedures were followed.

edam · 15/08/2004 22:47

Bunglie, your questions are spot on. The problem is people in power don't like being challenged (this seems to have been behind a lot of Southall's 'diagonoses', parents who questioned his treatment of their children were automatically suspects). See the vaccination threads.

And people don't like having to admit they have really messed up. Much easier to keep on insisting you were right, rather than confront the problem. Too expensive, too troublesome, too embarrassing ? it's just a few mothers, after all, we can shut them up easily enough. Not sure Marietta Higgs (of Cleveland fame) ever admitted she was a bizarre fantastist who had wrecked many happy families and assaulted their children, either.

You could also look at it as an issue of gender politics ? jealous, inadequate men frantically trying to neutralise the power of the mother. Or as a class issue ? many of the women affected have been from poorer backgrounds, without the resources, connections or education that would help middle-class people defend themselves (although not wholly so ? Sally Clark?).

PS I keep telling my own mother about this thread and she is truly shocked and appalled and very pleased I'm going on the rally.
She's a press officer and wants to know what arrangements the organisers have made to get press coverage ? I imagine that's what they need if their voices are to be heard? Bank holiday weekend so should be slow news-wise but on the other hand many journos away and only skeleton TV crews available. Email me if I can be of any use.

InnKogNeeToe · 16/08/2004 01:47

Hi all,

Mumtosteven, you made a very true point in saying,
And I Quote "this will surely at the very least improve people's employment prospects."
I was employed in a nursing home in the country i'm in, and worked evenings. My job entailed showering, dressing for bed, and giving evening medication to those to frail to do these things unaided.. because I had been labeled MSBP and my case in the UK was still in progress, my lawyer told me I was breaking the law doing the job I was doing and should leave imediately.... The Lawyer also told me I could be arrested if I continued to work where I was, I left, and have been unemployed since even though I have university qualifacations. What a waste of a British education..... Because of the label MSBP I lost my children, my home, and my job, I was emotionaly raped (thats how it felt to me) and insulted then left in the gutter.......

Take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

Bunglie · 17/08/2004 11:50

I have just posted this on the Southall Guilty thread, but I think it is just as important that it should be here also.

I think it comes from Radio4's Today Programme (today) I found a link to it on another site!
So listen HERE

Bunglie · 17/08/2004 17:56

Edam, did you get my email?

The answer is 'yes' please, anything in the way of publicity I think would be appreciated, but would like to contact you , hence my email!

What are the rest of you doing on the 28th?

Swipe left for the next trending thread