'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

[kalex]

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

Hi everyone just poped on to say hi all, hope your all well, considering how chilly it is

thinking of you all often, and wishing you all the best that life can give

Take care and be safe everyone

InnKogNeeToe

It seems so long since I have posted on this thread...
I hope you have lot's of nice thick jumpers IKNT as they say that this winter is going to be a 'doozy' of a cold one. If you need a scarf perhaps we could do a MNet knit for you where we all knit a square and sow it together...so you look like 'doctor who'going down the road

IKNT I was pleased to get your news and will email you back mine when I have a chance...as a 'Bunglie Bulletin' is due for those interested please can you CAT Janh so she has your email address (not you IKNT), and she will make certain that those of you who have suported us will get the latest news, although it is not much

I am cheating...rather than one long post I thought I would do two short ones...(well shortish!)

Last week I went and saw Cheeseball as she was feeling very down and alone, we later met up with Spuddy and had a nice afternoon out, we went to the Air-force memorial, which looks down over the whole of South london and is so quiet and peaceful it gave us time and space to talk,think and cry!

I took Cheeseball and Spuddy a little 'gift-box' each. I said it was from some MNetters, as I did not want them to know that I had done it all, but then a very kind Mnetter had given me some wonderful suggestions of what to put in it so it was not really a lie.
I put in some choccies and a couple magazines as well as some smellies for the bath and just little things. Cheesy was quite overcome,(she said it felt like Christmas had come early) and today I got a letter from her saying 'thank you' and that I could post the details of our visit on MNet. That is why I had not told you before, as I did not want to break any confidences.

As we were surounded by memorials, and names of 'lost soldiers' our thoughts went to the many mothers who have 'lost children'. They both thought it would be nice to do something to remember their 'babies', but could not think what. In the end we thought it would be nice to plant a rose bush for each of them, but where? I said that although my garden is small I could fit them in and perhaps they could come and stay and we could have a planting ceremony....we all hugged each other and cried, not because it was windy up there but because it was a relief to get it out of our systems.

After stopping for 'tea' they went home as did I. It was just wonderful to spend the afternoon with them and I hope we can do it again, we have agreed to meet up again before Christmas, but both Spuddy and Cheesy have asked me to thank you for the gift boxes, and the MNetter who helped with the suggestions knows who she is, (and so do they!) and they send her a big kiss and hug as well.

Now it crossed my mind that these two lovely people are still greiving, and I nor anyone can make that better, but perhaps to have something as a 'marker' for their greif will help, I hope so.

I want to ask you if this Christmas, when you are with your families if you will spare a thought for the hundreds of women like Cheesy and Spuddy, and if you would light a special candle, just for ALL of the mothers who have been seperated from their children. If you would do this I know that it will help the mothers who do follow this thread, to know that they have not been forgotten.

I hope you understand why I did not post this earlier as I wanted to have their permission.

Postsue...are you OK, we have not heard from you for a while . Do you need a phonecall?

I've just spotted this , I hope it comes to something. The way you mums stay strong through all of this is awe-inspiring.

Thanks Marina, If you don't mind I will copy your posting to the 'Southall Guilty' thread as well.

I personally would like to see him struck off and was horrified when he was not, but now I think that the other mothers who's cases are due to be heard soon by the GMC deserve to have 'their day' and for the world to know exactly what this man did to so many families. I understand that if he is struck off now then these cases will not be heard and then perhaps people will not realise that it was not only his allegations regarding Stephen Clarke, but also many other families to do with all sorts of un-ethical practices.

I do hope though that in the end he is struck off (as I hope Meadow's is), but it is no comfort for those who have had the courage to complain to the GMC, gone through all the heart-ache that this brings only to have him 'rapped on the knuckles'.

Thanks again Marina, I don't know in all honesty if I would like to see him struck off now, or after the other cases have been heard. It would be a nice way though for the government to 'sweep this under the carpet' as it would mean that MSbP and the rest of his 'wrong-doings' would not be fully investigated.

What do the rest of you think?

I just wondered Marina if you realised this, but it is thanks to you (I think I am right, but someone will correct me if I am wrong?) that I posted my story on MNet, and then some other mothers did the same, and as a result MNet has really helped five women who would not otherwise have got help....

It was you I think who first of all posted the story of Prof. Meadows being exposed and I did a 'google' search and found it, the result was I posted my story and the rest is history.

So, my thanks to you, a bit belated, but look what your posting resulted in, with the support of many, many other MNetters along the way.

I bet when you posted it that you did not realise that this would be the result?
Isn't MNet and MNetters wonderful?

indeed, bunglie, what a lot has happened since that first posting. I am glad you are all meeting each other and drawing strength from it. I honestly don't know whether it would be better if southall be struck off now or not. I think it's a decision only his victims can make. If he was struck off, could he be forced to make a public apology? Not that this necessarily goes far enough.

Tigermoth - I am not sure whether a public apology would really help anyone that much if I am honest, I know that it should. I was not affected by Southall, as you know my case involved Meadows and if he were asked to give a public apology I would not feel any better because I knew it was something he was doing 'against his will' and because he had been told to do, hence the apology would not in my mind be 'genuine'. However, if he made one without being asked or told to do so then I think that is an entirely different matter.

I also wonder how the parents affected by Southall feel. I know that if it were Meadow's that I would be happy to see him struck off now and not to have my case brought up by the GMC and open 'old wounds' but then I have had 15 years to live with this, I may have felt different 10 years ago and wanted to 'have my say'. So I think this one is personal to those involved and a bit of a 'tricky' one IYKWIM?

Oh Bunglie, . I do remember posting that link, but lots of other mumsnetters were on Meadow's tail right away, as well we might be. The man was so obviously a dangerous charlatan even before we heard your terrifying story. I feel a wiser, sadder person thanks to your courage in sharing what has happened to you since, I don't often feel I can post much helpful support, but you and the others, and your children are much in my thoughts. Constantly, really. If wishes were prayers...

Marina
Your link made a difference to a lot of peoples lives...and the story has not yet had it's happy ending...I am sure that it will.
Thank you all you lovely MNetters.

Was thinking the other day...what has happened to Stace...are you still out there?

Love Bunglie

Hi Bunglie, i am still here, i keep up with the thread and few others when i get a chance. DS2 was born right on time and we have had a few difficulties (hopefully they will all be overcome in time) Im so pleased that the rally went well and continue to send you all my warmest wishes and strength to fight the causes thanks for remembering me it has made me feel very cared for out there in virtual world.

aka stace

Hi all, I am new here. I found this page when searching the web re cot death. I haven't read much, but notice you are discussing msbp and as you seem a friendly bunch, I joined.
I am not a accused mum, but have been hearing about msbp and how cot death parents are being falsely accused and imprisoned, and all the horrid news accusing parents for some time now.
I lost my baby son to cot death some years ago, and I am disgusted at how parents are being accused/treated.
There was a time that there was nowhere to be found where parents like myself could talk - it's great that this is now happening.
SO BE IT...

Welcome, Sobeit to this thread...a little corner of MNet...that I hope you will find the help and support that many of us have found....

I am very sorry to read of your distressing situation, but here you will find many people who can empathise, and hopefully help you in what ever way you want.

A big hug, >>>

Love Bunglie

If you do not mind me asking sobeit, do you have any more children? If so I am sure you will soon become addicted to MNet and all the great advice offered on other threads as well as being able to give your own....but a warning...It is addictive

I was so sorry to read about your son, how long ago did you lose him? Did you manage to get some kind of counselling or help? I know that the pain of 'loosing' a child never goes away, it just becomes easier to live with. Obviously if I am being too personal in asking these questions I understand if you do not want to 'talk' about it, but we are here to listen and I am sure that you have a lot to offer us. Two of our mums have lost their children due to cot death and are having difficulty come to terms with it, and this was a number of years ago, so the pain is still there and I am sure that they can empathise with you.

Is there anything that you would like to ask us now...or anything that we can do?

In any case it is good that you found us and welcome again to Mumsnet.

Sleeplessmumoftwo (SMO2),
I am sorry I did not mean to pry and have you reveal your new mumsnet name, but I am glad that you are still about.

I am sorry about ds2, I do hope that her 'problems' can be overcome in time. I also hope to see a new name shortly...instead of 'sleepless' perhaps something a bit more 'restful'. You always gave straight forward and good advice...and if there is anything that I can do to repay that then ask Janh (My wonderful, un-paid, adopted mum and P.A) for my email address at yahoo.
I am Sooooo glad you are still with us
love Bunglie XX

Hello Bunglie. Thank you for the warm greeting.

Yes, I have three more beautiful children, two of my children are now teenagers. I have a daughter who is disabled and was a near miss cot death victim. I lost my son some years ago. I never sought any councilling because we are a very close family and I am fortunate to have a lot of love around me.

Do you run mumsnet Bunglie and is it based in England?

sobeit

Sobeit [girn]

Oh Sobeit, you bought a smile to my face this morning, especially with this awful weather we are having.....I am NOT laughing at you but I re-read my 'posts' and yes' it does sound a bit like I run mumsnet!

No! Three lovely ladies called Justine, Carrie and Rachel 'run' mumsnet and 'tech' keeps things running smoothly. There are members who are 'moderators' on the different boards, who are there just to make sure that we all behave ourselves, but I am just ONE ordinary member of I believe about 20,000 mothers registered.

I think Mumsnet is a wonderful concept because above all we can keep our anonymity and yet make friends and have meet-ups in the part of the country where you live. It is great if you have a problem, just post it on a 'thread' and within an hour you will have more answers than you ever dreamt was possible and on top of that it is great if you are a mum, 'stuck' at home and you do not manage to meet many other mothers or people, you can just log onto mumsnet and have a 'virtual drink' in one of the 'virtual bars' and just chat with the other MNetters in a 'Virtual world'

There is a section here on 'Special Needs' which I am sure you have lots of advice you could offer and on just about any topic you can think of. This 'thread'is just one of hundreds.

If you click 'active conversations' at the top of this screen you can see what things people are discussing at the moment (the last 50 conversations!). Can I suggest that you go back and look at the home page, and then 'talk' and you will be able to see the hundreds of different subjects covered from philosophy to gardening and weight loss (not that I am suggesting anything!) to current affairs in the news.

After a while you will get used to some of the terms used (click on acronyms at the top of the page if you are not sure) and you will certainly get to know many of the MNetters, although it is a 'virtual world' real friendships and support exists here.

I welcomed you to this 'thread' as someone who knows what it is like to 'lose' a child. This thread is probably one of the exceptions to the majority of 'threads' because it is where a few of us have come together after losing children either by cot death or false accusations of MSbP. The support shown here has been amazing and it has helped me personally in ways that are difficult to explain, but I will try.

I was falsley accused of having MSbP and after living for years with this 'shame' I finally told my story, in brief here, when Marina posted an article about Prof, Meadow's. Instead of condemnation I received support and understanding for the way that I felt. I got advice on how to go about writing simple things like letters and gradually the wonderful women here have helped build up my self-confidence again. They have pulled me through some 'sticky' patches of depression and introduced me to the nicer things in life like Ben and Jerries ice cream (although there is a debate that Green and Blacks organic is better!)
They have laughed with me, and cried with me but all the time they have respected my anonymity and shown me that I do have things to offer other people. For a longtime I just came to this thread, (this is about the 5th with roughly the same name), but with their help and boost of self-confidence I now drive them all bonkers and post on other threads as well, if I think I have something to offer. If I read a thread that I know nothing about I do not post on it, but it is an education. On some threads people are asking for opinions and advice, which is what I did when I first joined mumsnet, if I have an opinion that I think may be of help to someone then I post it.

Mumsnet is almost a way of life, if you let it!!! Some discussions are funny others sad, some serious and yet all are important to someone. So my welcoming you to this 'thread' was a way of saying "hello, feel at home and if we can help we will".

I actually feel rather embarrassed that you thought I might 'run' mumsnet....

It is the wonderful people here who make Mumsnet the special place it is. In my opinion (IMO)

I hope that helps explain things a bit better, I am sure that another Mnetter could have done it better than I. If you want to there is a place where you can 'go and introduce yourself', why don't you try that then you will be part of mumsnet quicker than you can say 'post'

Sobeit, you are very welcome to stay posting on this thread if you want to, as we are here for all the 'lost mothers', but you will be missing a virtual world out there if you don't look in at the other threads.

Bunglie, thank you for all the good advice, I will certainly read some of the other pages. Sorry if I embarrassed you, I should have read more before I even posted. How awful that you have been falsely accused, I can't imagine what it must be like for you. These professors and so called experts have a lot to answer for, I cannot understand how they continue to get away with it?
Maybe, soon, the truth will out and justice will be done, I sure hope so.
Many thanks
Sobeit

Sobeit, please do not worry about embarassig me, I am actually quite grateful to you because it has made me realise that I should be more careful perhaps in the way I post messages....as I tend to write as I speak I automatically think that people know things that they don't.

Thank you also for your kind words about being fasley accused. Unfortunately I am one of hundreds of women in this situation and without being able to speak out, as most of us have something called a 'gagging order' it is very difficult for people to see that this has been happening for years and only recently have some of the doctors responsible for making these false claims been exposed.

The sad fact is that for many it is too late, because our children have been adopted and it would not be in their interests to be uprooted from their 'new' families again and placed back with birth families. So the whole situation is very complicated and one the government is trying to 'sweep under the carpet' in my opinion. But it has bought much sadness to many but as I said before we have found a little corner of mumsnet here. We can offer each other support and help when times are hard.

Just a simple message like yours means an awful lot, so thank you again.
Bunglie XX

Bunglie, I want you to know that me, my daughters and my family are behind you 100%. The public can see the truth you know. My youngest daughter was once away from me, it broke my heart, and hers. Now she is eighteen, and pregnant with my first grandchild, she came back to me last year, after running away from home for almost two years - Heart breaking... There will be a day of reckoning, don't you think? and the children who have been taken away from their parents will be reunited, I pray for that day for you and your family, my family pray for that day for you all.

I cannot tell you how much I cried when my daughter left our home that day, we searched for her everywhere, I just wanted to hold her in my arms and tell her how much I loved her, more than life itself. I cried so much it almost killed me. When she returned, she fell into my arms, and cried, and said mum, I will never hurt you this way again... I am blessed to have my daughter back.

I read what you wrote with my daughters and my sisters, we talked all day and the next, what has this world come to? Why is it all happening? If we can help your campaign, we would do, so please let us know.

Thinking of you and all those who are suffering.
sobeit and family.

Sobeit, I am full of admiration for you, it must have been so very hard those two years but what a happy ending,and a grandchild on the way, congratulations. Your story actually made me cry and I hope that the relationship that you have with your daughter now gives others in the situation of being seperated from the child that they love, the strength to know that things can and often will work out and better than before.

There is not that much that you can reallydo in practical terms to help the'falsely accused mums at the moment. A lot ofthe Mnetters have written to their MP and Margaret Hodge about the whole situation.
There is also an 'Online' petition, I posted a link to it a while back. I will see if Ican find it again and re-post it.
But thank you again for your offer. Your support is more than enough, and to know that people are starting to realise the 'truth' of what has been happening to these mums for so many years helps more than you can posibly.imagine.

I am beginning to think it is time we started a new thread...as this one is getting so long again.

Does anyone know when the hearings are due to start at the GMC against Meadow's and Southall, is it early next year now?

Everything seems to be quiet at the moment...but maybe something will happen again soon to bring it all back into the arena of the media. I wonder how many of the 40 or so mums are going to appeal against their convictions and if so when?

Well it's off to bed for me again, I am back to the cranberry tablets this time...let's hope they work before it gets too bad. How do people drink that cranberry juice, it just makes me more thirsty and leaves an awful taste in my mouth...now if I could use it as a mixer we might be talking????

For those of you who do not know a lady called Penny Mellor, 'spear heads' the campaign against MSbP accussations in this country. I have never met her but I know a little bit about her.
She is a mother and hates injustice of any kind. She has never been accused herself of MSbP but does help a lot of women who have. She has the repect of many eminent(sp) people and I personally respect her because she has never been in the same position as many of these mothers and yet she fights for them. I had THIS LINK sent to me in an email and I thought that you may find it of interest. It relates to Prof Southall.

What do you think? It was this bit that got to me as much as anything;
" NHS staff at the centre of public allegations are prevented from defending themselves in public because of the need to protect patient confidentiality."
Is this any different as to how the mothers who have lost their children feel because they have been gagged by the courts and can't speak out?

Also I find it worrying that the hospital investigated the same claims that found Southall Guilty, relating to Steve Clarke and other things to do with the baby incubators etc. They found no wrong doing or case to answer. In the process this trust has spent One Million pounds investigating the claims against this one doctor, when that money could have been spent on patient care...why did they not just leave it up to the GMC that is their job I would have thought. I am not that intelligent when it comes to things like this, but it seems to me that some people are spending money that should be used in helping patients and people, not trying to prove a single man was being victimised.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick again??
What is your interpretation of this? I would be interested to know?

Hi Bunglie, thought i had replied to your posting last week but it appears not! Thank you so much for the kind words, firstly its good to know that my thoughts and words have reached you in the past as sometimes it can feel a little isolated hear in the VW. As you know, i have enormous respect and admiration for you (and the other lost mothers and children)and often think about you all and follow the threads.

I was thinking again today, and forgive me if this suggestion has a)either come up before or b) is just down right stupid or a waste of time.

Anyway i shall try hard to be concise and clear.

It seems clear to me that a part of the resistance to opening up the past ( for the victims and the authorities) is that after such a long time it would be unwise to provide restitution (if that is the right word) (ie to return the children to natural parents) If it is agreed that that would be difficult/impossible/poss detrimental that is not a good enough reason to just close the subject. Anyway getting to my point, we live in a society that does sometimes live by the motto of 'name and shame' therefore why should it not be that people should be 'NAMED AND CLEARED' everyone should be entitled to the right to clear their names. For the sake of their own sanity, and equally for the sake of the children's future.

Sorry i know this has probably all been said before but what can we do to make the authorities see that you all have the right to appeal your cases, for them to be heard and for you to be publicly cleared for your rights as well as the rights in transition for your children.

Hope this helps to get peoples minds churning again with ideas of how to get more action!!!!

If i've said anything wrong please excuse me and blame the lack of sleep and hormones.

bunglie, another thing i have to add that you may need to change your name BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE SO THAT YOU ARE ONE OF LITTLE MIND-

You are bear of BIG MIND AND BIG HEART and should be known as such by all

Awe! Sleeplessmumof2 (SM2),

Thank you, but I do sometimes feel like a 'bear of very little brain'. I think I understand what you are saying and yes I agree of course.

I do not know of any case in the civil courts yet, but I hope that those that were dealt with in the criminal courts will be able to get their names cleared.

Our society is a sad one, when we are quick to judge...it is no longer innocent until proven guilty, and that counts I think for everyone, authorities and individuals. I have read several things where people still think Sally Clarke was guilty....And yet despite being cleared she will always have that stigma attached to her name.

I don't know the answer to so many things...I wish I did. I think that the issue of MSbP will hit the media again when the Meadow's and Southall cases are heard by the GMC, but I think most people are not interested as they think that it will not or does not affect them. If only they realised how easy it is for a label to be placed on someone, and once there it is like trying to get chewing gum off the floor, it never all quite comes off.

I think that we need a reform of the Family Court system, and then maybe people can see for themselves and that might help. I think I read somewhere that this was being looked at, but can't remember where.

I would however urge people to sign the online petition, it has not had much publicity and there is an offline one as well, but I have not got a copy of that.

HERE is the link to the online petition if anyone wants to 'sign it'.