Harvey Weinstein, continued (thread #2)

[CaveMum]

Continuation of the Harvey Weinstein discussion.

Link to first thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3052708-Harvey-Weinstein?pg=1

Thanks to GorgeousLadyOfWrangling here is the current list of allegations:

Updated allegations (as of 17-10-17) Alleged harassment/assault often took place in hotel suites or offices or private residences/rooms. Some at Cannes, Sundance, Venice, Toronto film festivals. Complainants included actresses, assistants, interns, models, presenters, a producer.

'Bargaining' was a ploy in many cases as was presenting himself in a bathrobe or naked or in the bath and often took place in hotel suite meetings where women were sent up to the room from the original venue or accompanied by assistants who were then told to leave.

1. Amber Anderson - was offered opportunities in return for sex - 20
2. Lysette Anthony - rape - London her home
3. Asia Argento - demanded massage, forced cunnilingus - 21
4. Rosanna Arquette - attempted forced masturbation

5.Jessica Barth - propositioned naked massage in return for opportunities

1. Kate Beckinsale -interviewed her in his bathrobe - 17
2. Zoe Brock - exposed himself/demanded massage/chased -23
3. Liza Campbell - naked in bath during meeting
4. Emma de Caunes - exposed himself/told her to lie on bed

10. Cara Delevingne - asked her to kiss another girl, kissed her 11.Florence Darel - propositioned her, roles for sex - 26 12. Sophie Dix - demanded massage, exposed himself, tried to pin her down, masturbated in front of her - 22 13. Dawn Dunning - offered jobs in return for threesome - 24 14. Alice Evans - told her now husband's career would stall/HW wanted to touch her breasts (Evans and Ioan Gruffud were never offered another picture with Weinstein studio) 15. Lucia Evans - forced fellatio 16. Angie Everhart - awoke to find him masturbating - yacht 17. Claire Forlani - massage suggested, she rebuffed him 25 18. Romola Garai - interviewed her in his bathrobe - 18 19. Louisette Geiss - appeared in bathrobe, asked her to watch him masturbate - 20. Louise Godbold - demanded massage 21. Judith Godreche - demanded massage, pulled at her - 24 22. Trish Goff - groped - private dining room 25 23. Heather Graham - he inferred sex for roles 24. Eva Green - groped, had to push him off, threatened her career 25. Ambra Guttierez - groped breasts 26: Lauren Holly - exposed himself, demanded massage 27. Angelina Jolie - unwanted advances 28. Ashley Judd - demanded massage, asked her to watch him masturbate 29. Katherine Kendall - demanded massage, exposed himself, chased - 23 30. Minka Kelly - offered her a $ lifestyle if she would be his girlfriend 31. Mia Kirshner - unwanted advances/inducements 32. Mylene Klass - offered a sex contract 33. Laura Madden - demanded massages 34. Sarah Ann Masse - interviewed her for nanny job in his underwear - 35. Rose McGowan - (NDA) rape - 23 36. Emily Nestor - offered her mentorship in return for sex 37. Lauren O'Connor - harrassment (NDA) 38. Gwyneth Paltrow - demanded massage - 22 39. Zelda Perkins - potential harassment but settlement 25 40. Sarah Polley - insinuated to her contracts for relationship 41. Tomi-Ann Roberts - naked in bath - 20 42. Erika Rosenbaum - he masturbated stood behind her 43. Melissa Sagemiller - demanded massage, blacklisted her - 24 44. Lea Seydoux - lunged at her 45. Lauren Sivan - masturbated in front of her in restaurant 46. 'Sarah Smith' (pseudonym) - sexual assault 47. Mira Sorvino - unwanted massage/chased 48. Tara Subkoff - pulled her onto his lap/blacklisted 49. Paula Wachowiak - exposed himself, demanded massage - 25

Plus five more anonymous = 54 women
---------------------

That list doesn't include:
Jessica Hynes (didn't get a role when refused to do a screen test in a bikini)
Courtney Love (potentially blacklisted)
Felicity Huffman (forced to wear his wife's gowns or no promotion)
Or women he has slandered by namedropping them (Charlize Theron, Nicole Kidman) Or ''Harvey's Girls'' blinds.

It was in the NY Times (not the New Yorker). Excellent piece. Horrifying but very powerful:

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

The Salma Hayek piece is both devastating and heartbreaking. I was gutted when she lost out to Nicole Kidman for the Oscar. I liked The Hours but Nicole has done better roles both before and subsequently.
I knew Frida was a labour of love but had no idea just how hard she had to fight for it.

that Salma Hayek article is actually really frightening. poor woman/women.

The Weinstein strategy is really not that unusual. Basically, it's a combination of victim-blaming/harassment of the whistleblower, or potential whistleblower, by constructing a fictional narrative against them. You smear them to a third party, who is suitably grateful to have been given the heads-up, and won't break a confidence by actually taking the smear to the victim and giving them a say - after all, you've heard they're a bit of a nightmare, best leave alone.

If the third party sees no apparent evidence to back up the smear, well, that just goes to show how useful this inside info was, doesn't it? You just can't tell these days. It does help, of course, if the info/smear comes from an apparently 'authoritative' source.

The most famous example is South Yorkshire police and the Hillsborough fans and relatives. They set up their smear campaign while the bodies were still lined up in the gymnasium, before the sun had set on the game. That demonstrates that it's a quasi-legit strategy, as you can't imagine an organisation just spontaneously on the day deciding to fit up the deceased and their bereaved relatives.

Of course, some gullible journos ran the story, but you can't say it was unsuccessful as a strategy - not if it took nearly 30 years for the truth to emerge. It worked very well in fact.

There are plenty of other examples by public bodies - the RSPCA kill a family cat needlessly, then when they try to complain set about smearing the family. The Met getting a file out on the Stephen Lawrence family after its accused of racsim. The NMC getting a file out on a grieving father who complains about one of their member's role in the death of his child - even following his Twitter feed.

Surrey County Council's Adult Social Care team did it to me - they launched a campaign of harassment after I exposed one of its failing care homes to the local press (it had nearly killed my mother) - they did it by getting my mother's subsequent care home to go trawling for dirt against me. Naturally, they didn't let on they were behind it, and I only found out after I applied for a Subject Access Request. So this strategy is basically a well-known 'thing'. 'You've got something on us? We'll get something on YOU!'

BTW any news of when Harvey is actually going to be arrested?

BTW any news of when Harvey is actually going to be arrested?

You're funny.

What's funny about that?

In a sad way. He won't.

This has all gone remarkably quiet... although I did read something the other day that suggested there might be another Westminster scandal on the way.
Harv presumably is still in a 'clinic' somewhere?

I might be wrong. Excellent. And fingers crossed.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/03/harvey-weinstein-prosecutors-sexual-harassment-claims

hope so lweji. DD2 is doing a case history on Weinstein for her next uni assessment. She is getting bored with it - all action at the beginning but now the silence...

Anyone been reading quotes on twitter from James Franco? Another one hiding in plain sight

Yeah, and I'm still arguing with some people that the women aren't just seeking notoriety.

Has anyone seen the comments by (older) French actresses against the #Metoo movement and recent

I wonder if they have normalised it in their heads. And if they being French is relevant.

Deneuve has now sort of apologised, after international and national backlash.

www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/15/catherine-deneuve-speaks-out-over-metoo-controversy

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/french-feminists-catherine-deneuve-metoo-letter-sexual-harassment

www.thelocal.fr/20180110/french-feminists-hit-back-at-actress-catherine-deneuve-over-defense-of-sleazy-men

But
"Brigitte Bardot: sexual harassment protesters are 'hypocritical' and 'ridiculous’"
www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/18/brigitte-bardot-metoo-sexual-harassment-protestors-hypocritical-and-ridiculous

Yes I read those Lweji and was disappointed. Also, the woman who started the French equivalent of me too is now being sued for defamation.
No idea whether there's any cultural difference - there is the stereotype of french wives being cool with husbands having mistresses but I thought that was just a cliche (although I did once au pair in France for a woman who was married to her older sister's ex husband and the whole family were cool and blase about it).
Sadly the metoo movement is having a bit of a backlash - I keep seeing the word witch hunt bandied around. The sheer volume of complainants and men being assholes or timesup hypocrites is hard to keep up with and trial by social media is making it harder as there has not been legal recourse. All shitty behaviour being called out is important but it is more complex than all acts being under the same umbrella. Of course if either the legalities or the differences between illegal and immoral acts are pointed out then the person pointing that out gets lynched.
I am not sure what the answer is. I was creeped out by the Aziz Ansari account, related to it as being a recognisable shitty date and the fingers down the throat porno move made me shudder - given the guy had written about dating, was a self-declared feminist I could see why the complainant wanted to call him out. But does it then become character assassination? Ed Westwick does not appear to have been arrested yet but his career appears to be over, like what happened to John Leslie years ago. Given the fact that there were 3 complainants for each, one could argue that a loss of career IS justice of sorts. But is a verdict without trial just? Then you have the guys who saw what happened to Spacey and LouisCK when they made apologies and they have zero intention of doing anything other than deny it - Jeremy Piven, Gary Goddard, looking at you. The allegations against Goddard especially should be looked at.
But wrt historic allegations there was a flurry of actors in the last week who have distanced themselves from Woody Allen. Which means belated justice for Dylan even if it is in the sense of finally being heard.
And of course there is a difference between child abuse and sexual harassment. But the harassment complainants might feel just as unheard when guys like John Lasseter are taking time out until things die down and there's no comeback.
I compiled the list of Pervy Wankstain complainants on here and on thread one - could not believe no legal action was being taken, only civil suits. I have not compiled a list of all men named in metoo in all industries but suspect it would be double figures by now. I think that Lindy West nails it here - enthusiastic consent has to be the way forward in the future. That's what sons should be being taught.
www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html

Yes, I read that article earlier and have posted it on FB, including in reply to someone who sent me an opinion article by some man saying something like enough with the witch hunt.

It's very good.

variety.com/2018/tv/news/samantha-bee-aziz-ansari-metoo-1202668268/

If you say you're a feminist then fuck like a feminist...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinstein_effect

There are 100+ men who have had allegations against them post Weinstein. As far as I know, none have come to court.

Some people will claim that these men weren't convicted, so allegations were probably false.

Indeed. I just find it incredible that the US equivalent of the CPS have not accrued enough evidence to prosecute in any of the cases. It is so bad it makes Yewtree look good. I assume civil suits will serve justice of sorts and the firing of those accused of harassment.
But allegations of rape, assault and child abuse, historic or not, shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. I can only assume the burden of proof in historic allegations makes it all too difficult to prosecute.
It is an interesting time and whether the tipping point will lead to social change or not remains to be seen.
Social media and public shaming, especially in tweet form, will always be problematic though and yes, I do believe these women. I also believe in a fair trial but as we know, the legal system re rape is anything but fair.
The Woody Allen backlash is for many too little, too late - as for Polanski - again, in the interests of fairness Moses Farrow and Bob Weide tell a completely different story.