Charlie Gard 13

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

stich

Wow. That is a low turnout.

Milan is big. With pretty good transport links to the hinterland and surrounding areas as well. I can jump on a bus here in another province and be there in 30 minutes, for five euros. If there were "not such a tiny minority" strongly held feelings about the case I would have expected them to have been able to scrape together more than 20 from a population of over a million in just the city itself.

I've even started to doubt that the judge has the courage to say ' right original order upheld'

My position exactly ... if he was going to do it at all, I've often felt that he should have done it before this latest farce over seemingly non-existent "new evidence" was allowed to spin out of control

I really do get the point about being seen to look at absolutely everything, but there's clearly no limit to the claims the family will make to put off the inevitable, so at what point is the answer going to be "no", rather than allowing yet more delay which may not actually be helpful to anyone in the end?

Some thought provoking quotes from an article linked to by a pp.
Does not claim to be copyright, available freely online and says available to the media.
blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2017/07/the-sad-case-of-charlie-gard-and-the-rights-and-wrongs-of-experimental-treatment/

Whether the left is a death cult is a ‘matter of opinion’…? Really? That is an unsupportable statement, and it does make beliefs derived from the position invalid. It is true only in the trivial sense where everything is a matter of opinion. I believe that the Earth is spherical, and that Hitler was generally a bad person. But of course these are also ‘matters of opinion’ in the sense you use the phrase.

There are no facts in politics, only value judgements, we operate in a post-truth political arena, and all beliefs are valid as beliefs. There are therefore no ‘ludicrous assertions’ as such, there are individuals who are hostile to others, usually reflecting an ideological, philosophical, social, ethnic, or religious divide. What Josh Brostoff describes as ‘ludicrous assertions’ are the heartfelt beliefs of people who suffer at the hands of the elite. They see in the Charlie Gard case a validation of their beliefs and world-view. Insulting them, and treating them with contempt, will not make them go away, or make them any less angry, frustrated and alienated. Sooner or later they will hit back, as they did already in the Brexit referendum.

Now I know how people like Josh Brostoff will react to this: they will scream, or at least insist loudly, that there are no death panels, that the EU does not execute anyone, and so on. No doubt he will also insist that there are no chemtrails, no white genocide, no reptilians, that the UK is not under Sharia Law, and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a forgery. That is how the well-educated see the world. But that’s not how the rest of the population sees it, at least a very significant section of the rest of the population. The elite respond to this with open contempt, and a strategy of political exclusion. This is not sustainable in the long run. Western elites must at some point make concessions to the existence of the populist underclass.

Jux your comments are out of order.

I wonder if C&C have saved their outbursts for the courts or if they have happened in the hospital too?

I imagine it's horrible in the unit for everyone atm. I'd hate to be in there with my child. I'd hate to be working in there. Monday and Tuesday is going to be hellish for everyone in that PICU while they wait to see the outcome of the JR.

I feel so desperately sorry for them, I really do. But it's all got so out of hand.

After poor Charlie dies, I fear that the tabloid press will turn on C&C particularly if they continue to go after the staff and, as some here are suggesting, public sympathy is on the side of GOSH.

I wonder to what degree C&C are simply being themselves. As a teacher, I've experienced parents behaving in similar ways about trivial matters. Usually you discover it is their default setting and they are well known in the community. Projecting, I know, but it seems to me that they play on the fact that GOSH are prevented from answering back for professional and ethical reasons.

I hope Charlie and his parents find some peace to say goodbye.

I've even started to doubt that the judge has the courage to say ' right original order upheld'

I think he will have no trouble making that call if there is no new evidence to convince him, and he's been clear that Charlie's best interests in legal terms is his only priority, and that it would take something significant to change the original ruling.

It looks as if, as discussed on the last several threads, that he has tried to make this an opportunity for parents to feel listened to, to see that truly everything has been explored and to include the family to try and reach some kind of common ground with the medics. If so it was a very kind approach, different to the three court processes that haven't reached a point of acceptance for the family. However with hindsight it's looking like a big mistake to have not shut this whole circus down around the court matters with a very firm hand before it got this far.

The protests, the facebook page, the defamation of GOSH, all of that could and should have been stopped without in any way infringing the family's rights. They can take GOSH to court and prove there with evidence that they have been lied to or their child has been mistreated if they choose to do so. But this has set an awful precedent that contempt of court and this kind of behaviour is fine if you're in a distressing enough position.

I keep thinking of poor Shannon Matthews being the victim of adults wanting to replay the McCann situation with their eye on the financial gain and publicity involved. I can see the Gard situation could be equally re enacted with similar goals in mind by someone unscrupulous.

I've seen lots of posts on CA saying there is nothing wrong with him. How do they think he ended up on life support in the first place? And what is the fear of turning it off if that is the case. LG is stoking a lot of it up
Re the Holland poem. It was given to me and I had to hold my tongue. It gives me the rage.
And yes to adopted children being public property. I've had stuff said to me about my ac that would never be said about BC
On here there was a thread about why people adopt and I said it is simple - they want children
That led to a long ranty post saying I thought adopters were special people not just wanting children and on and on
Fine I am happy to not be seen as special

And I too find it heartbreak how many children die each day from lack of water, medication, health care and no outrage

This Radio Four programme, Inside the Ethics Committee, gives excellent insight into how medical ethics are applied to real cases. This programme is about Ben whose case has some similarities to Charlie.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ljl4y

I think the judge has been clear he will make his decision based on the law and only the law. I doubt he will be swayed by histrionics and the pleading of C&C. He will examine the evidence set before him and decide whether allowing the treatment to go ahead will be in Charlie's best interests. I think he is making sure whatever he rules is watertight and that there can be no room for further appeals.

@AncientRain there's no question. White babies and children (Charlie, Madeleine) from nice white families have a different value attached to them than the thousands of unseen children who die every minute from preventable causes.

From UNICEF:

"About 29,000 children under the age of five – 21 each minute – die every day, mainly from preventable causes. More than 70 per cent of almost 11 million child deaths every year are attributable to six causes: diarrhoea, malaria, neonatal infection, pneumonia, preterm delivery, or lack of oxygen at birth."

There is a certain arrogance and entitlement that criticises the NHS and GOSH when they have cared for and protected the life of a seriously ill child when it is clear that he would have died many months ago if he had the bad luck to be born in almost any other part of the world.

Have just done my civic duty and reported 2 CA posts that complete GOSH to Hitler.

Lello, you're right. I apologise.

Someone on there has wrote a email to GOSH asking why they want to kill Charlie and is encouraging others to do the same..lovely lot!!!

fairy I wondered that. I have been on paediatric units when parents are "kicking off" before now and even on a low level it certainly has a negative impact upon the ward as a whole. Mind boggles what it must be like on that unit for all there at the moment if they are behaving as they are in court. Even if behaving normally it must be very tense

That's good weewitch, who did you report to? I can't bear to look on the page at the moment, it's making me so angry.

Does anyone have any thoughts about why it's mostly women on the page? On the Sun/Mail FB articles, there's quite a few men expressing opinions but it seems overwhelmingly women on CA.

I know it's probably been posted on these threads, but this Court of Appeal Summary is well worth a read.
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

The Dr looking after Charlie has been reported to the NSPCC. I am raging.

I've been criticised at work for not joining the CA because "you're about to be a mother. You're obviously not very conpassionate"

I feel sad for the family. Doesn't mean I have to be a vigilante about it.

It'd be interesting to study the "mob" behaviour.

The whole adopted children/biological children thing annoys me. I'm pregnant with baby boy 1. My grandma has said how lovely it is she'll have her first great grandson. She already has one. Because my cousins son is adopted. He is family. Grandma doesn't see this. He's not her "real" grandson apparently.

Omg friendlysnake, where did you see that? Under what post?? I can't believe it, they are the evil ones!

Friendlysnake why would you even give that airtime? Seriously?

There is a teenage boy who seems to be trying to spawn a media career out of it, doing webcasts and giveaways (the bracelets), he has moved on to Alfie now.

It's incredibly poor taste and disrespectful.

Lelloteddy what do you mean?