Charlie Gard 13

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Ooh Rozenberg tweets. Thank you Rita.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·56s Gard: court now discussing whether potential expert witnesses will be cross-examined next week.

*Grant Armstrong for Charlie Gard's parents tells Mr Justice Francis they were not allowed to see his hospital notes.

Really? Yet CY was in the meetings?

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·19s Mr Justice Francis: if Charlie's parents want to give further oral evidence next week I won't stop them.

Is it normal practice for parents to see their child's hospital notes?

Connie Yates was in the meeting, she will have heard absolutely everything, why then would she want to see Charlies notes???

Wouldnt have thought so, they are the patients notes, not the patients parents. They were at the meeting to observe and listen, not take part.

I doubt they would be able to interpret them without help anyway and that was not what thenmeeting was for. The meeting was for the doctors to confer

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·33s Gard: Judge asks Armstrong to deliver a detailed schedule identifying all the new material available since his judgment of 11 April.

When we were in hospital we were allowed to look through the nursing notes on our own but if we wanted to look through doctors notes we had to sit down with the Drs so they could explain them to us.

Maybe this is the case here?

Oh lord wouldn't you think GOSH would have handed them all the notes to avoid this?

There are also procedures you have to follow if you're wanting hard copies, I would imagine these would also apply to C&C regarding Charlie, you don't just ask and get there and then.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·20s Judge: there was much common ground among the experts. Armstrong: but what's its formal evidential status?

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
· 49s Judge: the transcript will help me decide what's in Charlie's best interests.

It's true rat, goodness this can't have come as a surprise that they (the parents) would want this. And would bring it up in court if they didn't get it.

No. GOSH do not have to give all the detailed notes to the parents and they have not been ordered to. Charlie is a separate human being and clearly they were discussed with CY present. That is normal and what was agreed.

rat??! so sorry! rita!

Wouldn't they have medical language and shorthand in them? So would non medical people fully understand them anyway?

Also not sure what relevance this has to their case; presumably they were free to ask any questions if they wanted to?

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·42s Judge: let's sit at 1000 rather than 1030 on Monday. Says he can't give judgment on Tuesday if evidence continues throughout that day.

It was agreed by both sides in court that they weren't going to see his notes? I'm sorry i missed that.

It's just so frustrating!

What parents mention in court is not necessarily what they will get. The transcript is for the judge to help him decide. As he states.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·13s Gollop QC: GOSH have no problem with Charlie's parents seeing his notes. We don't recognise what Armstrong said about this.

Yes it was agreed that CY would be in the meeting to listen only and would have chance to ask questions at the end of of the meeting.

De-lurking, don't comment much as the threads move so fast for me to comment.

The comment about not being able to see Charlie's notes just feels like an attempt to delay court proceedings. I think they will try anything now, especially if they are aware or sensing it's not going in their favour. So tragic.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·24s Gollop QC: there's no impediment to Charlie's parents inspecting his notes.

The religious discussion is interesting, I knew a family who had a member who had a serious head injury, the family had very devout members including clergy, lots of praying. They prayed "for goods will to be done" in a speedy manor. i.e. that he either got better soon or died soon, whichever was gods will, but that the "no mans land" state didn't drag on IYKWIM.

Re shielding from death, we live very fundamentally removed from death, if we eat meat it doesn't look like dead animal. My children have never seen me gut a fish, even if I buy from a fishmonger they gut it for me. I saw my parents gut fish and remove giblets from chicken etc.