Charlie Gard 13

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Whatever the medical evidence I sadly don't think it will change the perception of C&C or CA.

Anything perceived to substantiate GOSH's position will be "a lie", "fabricated evidence" etc

I think they are so far denial they simply can't accept anything other than the possibility he could get well.

The photos they use as "evidence" that he is growing, seeing etc show to me simply how very ill he is. It's like the emperors new clothes with everyone fixated of seeing something that just is not there.

Another belter from CA

What a sad world we live in, where judges merely look at legal arguments set out by professionals and not into the eyes of a baby they have the power to save

Imagine a judge merely going by the law. Who'd have thought it. Shocking 🙄

They get more and more ridiculous by the day

Ah that could be it, statistically...!

CA are having a field day.

Pictures of Gollop as the devil captioned "hoodies cow" etc

All of this ironically under a post asking people not to name call....

It really is truly jaw dropping just how many people have no idea that judges exist to uphold the law and not to express opinion or emotion. How can people come through our compulsory education system and be so ignorant of the basic operation of the society they live in? You can forgive not understanding the complicated medical side but the lack of knowledge and refusal to learn just boggles my brain.

There are a couple of posts which would constitute a credible threat of violence towards KG. Have reported the main to FB but assume they'll do nothing.
I'm not on Twitter but understand people have used that to send screenshots to the Met?

This whole case is like Groundhog day, a ghastly repetition of court cases, CY shrieking, calling GOSH 'liars' on and on it goes.
If the Judgment is for Palliative care, for goodness sakes let the poor child slip away..delays are not used to have close times with Charlie, but are wasted on trying to find ''cures''.
Nightmare scene and must be so trying for everyone involved.

Not surprised other parents are complaining about the protests either.

And as others have noticed, in all the furore are people from CA asking where their Key ring is..it is insane.
Social media has a lot to answer to.

Before the days of the interner, would not have so easily found this Hirano guy.
He was easy to find through the simplest of google searches.
Now she has found some other child..will this be used to 'buy fighting time' all over again?

As regards the MRI scan, I assumed that as with earlier tests, MRI shows brain tissues, and the EEG (the length of which was the thing they had to consult the judge about over the weekend) shows the electrical activity of the brain. So, the MRI scan of the head could show the size of the brain and the skull, if you recall the whole size of his head issue. It would also show any gross abnormalities like fluid-filled voids, or I think from the earlier scan, there was some white-matter abnormality (but I may be mis-remembering that part!). But it is possible, given that he wouldn't have required sedation, that they have done a whole-body scan as well??? Hence you could then, for example, look at general muscle wastage, cardiac muscle???? The Telegraph does seem to refer to 'muscle wastage' and I'm wondering why would you care unless it was important functional muscles, like the heart??? As I recall, you can see a lot of info from an MRI even without invasive steps like injecting contrast agents.

I hope the evidence is very clear -- that will hopefully make the whole decision process and public understanding and eventually, we all hope, understanding for the parents, easier...........................

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved. I wonder how the staff are coping?

Redglitter that was posted by Laura Gard, she is actively making the situation worse.

Yes you wouldn't need to inject a contrast dye or anything for MRI. Only for PET scans I think which you don't really need in this case.

The structural MRI should show voids, fluid sacs, and probably shows the degeneration of Charlie's brain quite starkly.

Oh this poor soul, I hope he passes peacefully and I hope his parents eventually find some closure.

It's a weird day when I find myself agreeing with DailyMail comments, but even they are sounding sensible compared to CA hysteria. Echoes what someone said in the previous thread about the NHS being in our bones, and feeling wounded if someone unreasonably criticises our hard working doctors and nurses!

I see CA are talking again about how GOSH will have 'interfered' with the MRI scan report.

I've also seen two people seriously suggest they get in touch with the Queen so she can make the Court send Charlie to America.

Are these people actually this stupid?!

I do wonder if when it actually comes to turning off the anaesthetic machine, if the police will have to be present? Both at the bedside and outside.

If he has oedema from organ failure, and the MRI shows muscle wastage, those two things together could potentially point to it being his heart that's failing?

I really don't believe that KG has just read out that the scan is sad reading like that with no thought for the parents! Like others have said, in a normal situation the parents would be at the hospital with their child and the doctors would tell them there, in privacy, where they can be with the child!
This situation is so far removed from that of a "normal" situation. As it is an ongoing court case I would be surprised if GOSH were actually able to speak with C&C at the courts at all without it being a conflict and potentially things being used against them or claims that they said something they didn't?!

I just wish Connie or Chris's parents would get them, hug them tight and keep them in a bubble with no SM and no CA. They are going to need a great deal of love when all this is over.

The judge has shown tremendous patience, with outbursts in court, with material he has repeatedly asked for not being provided, with the parents being obstructive regarding scans/investigations. It really is time to say enough is enough and put an end to this, for everyone's sake.

Someone a while back linked to a case of twin boys where the hospital applied for permission to turn off life support. The parents objected, partly on religious grounds, but the court papers said their imam was able to guide them to accept the judge's decision and the sad situation was resolved quickly, privately and with dignity. What a pity C&C don't have someone like that imam to guide them.

I've read CY quoted as 'We're not supposed to read it like that'. From that I don't think it's clear that they hadn't been told about the results

It sounds to me that they thought there was going to be a different interpretation of the results, rather than not seeing the results.

This will probably get deleted, but I cannot help but think that these two are acting like petulant children. I don't think that they, or Connie at least, aren't clever people, but by behaving in this manner they are opening themselves up to people judging them harshly.

This has been going on a long time. None of this would have been new and surprising news to them.

This isn't CA btw, it just popped up on my fb feed (comment on an independent article)...

"by the time GOSHospital and the Court have finished they could have the death of the parents on their consciouses as well as Charlie's, how much can two parents take before they can't take anymore."

Yep.

I have never had a Facebook account as I never felt the need but a few days ago I created one because I wanted to see for myself what CA were saying. I honestly wished I hadn't done this as it is making me so angry at how misguided they are and the way they are making out GOSH to be evil and intent on killing Charlie for no good reason. It's making me feel both very sad and very angry at the same time. It's all such a horrible mess but in the centre of it all there is a desperately ill baby who is completely unaware of all the fuss and furore. I just hope that if the judge makes the decision which I expect he will that Charlie is allowed to slip away peacefully and with dignity.

If the judge decides to stop ventilation, would anyone know if the judge can also order that it be done in private. What I mean is that no date is given, and only family present.

Otherwise it will turn into a massive media fest. Which would be dreadful for all concerned.

I am just thinking out loud here.

The parents' solicitor will have decided which barrister to instruct based on availability, experience and who they think would be able to build the best relationship with the parents (I suspect they would want someone fairly bullish). Barristers are self employed so whilst - if you are instructing senior and junior counsel, senior counsel will have a fair amount of input, it's not the case that chambers will select who takes a case. Instructing solicitors will normally have someone in mind and, if they are not available, get a list of who is available to consider.

This won't help either

That's the pro life pastor posting that publicly btw.

BeyondDrinksand Knows things...my son'sfriend had his life support removed,after just four days..the parents were devastated, as any parent would be.
The lad's organs improved the lives of four other people, and his mum became an advocate for organ donation.However, the father never got over the loss of his son, and died a year or so later of cardiac failure..his wife thought grief had a part.

The couple who committed suicide after their baby died was a really tragic case..but one hopes, with genetic counselling, CY and CG will one day have a healthy baby.
They clearly are devoted parents, but have got mired in this denial thing, driven along by keyring making, mob like CA