In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

Single That's how i am reading it - over 80 in total.

The 30 haven't been identified, so that will overlap with the 58 to some degree.

there was a government announcement that the plastic-filled panels do not meet Building Regulations for buildings more than 18metres high (this will be for England).

Has anyone managed to find the paragraph that is supposed to say so?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-approved-document-b

The announcement is shown on the BBC website (timed at 12.31)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008

Strangely I can't find it on the government website
www.gov.uk/government/announcements?keywords=&announcement_filter_option=all&topics%5B%5D=all&departments%5B%5D=department-for-communities-and-local-government&world_locations%5B%5D=all&from_date=15%2F06%2F2017&to_date=

Pardon my cynicism.

That was my thinking BeyondStrongAndStable - they could have done it but the government and council just didn't act hard or fast enough here.

I'm quite impressed with Cundy, he comes across very well. Ditto the female police commissioner (can't remember her name) - both come across as incredibly professional.

An inquest can deliver verdicts like manslaughter.

I don't see how it can, SylviaPoe, unless my understanding of the law is wrong. My understanding was that an inquest is aimed at factually determining cause of death. There isn't a defendant on trial; there's no one to pass a verdict of manslaughter upon. The coroner can conclude a death was an unlawful killing, but manslaughter, I understood, is a crime, tried in a criminal court, where a jury passes a verdict on guilt or innocence upon the defendant. There may also be criminal trials in this case of course, but I don't think they preclude the need for a wider systemic investigation.

I don't know. It still appears to me that a public inquiry is the better vehicle for this; I think there is more of a risk of a white wash with an inquest, because the coroner does not have the jurisdiction to ask the important questions around systemic failures. The issue is the how long public inquiries drag on for.

Three definite identities, six possible, included in the 30 dead. So they shouldn't be included in the missing?

I can't believe there's only 58 fatalities. Gosh, there are no words to express the sadness.

He was explicitly asked if it was 58+ 30 or 58 including 30 and stated it's 58 including 30.

I don't see how it can, SylviaPoe, unless my understanding of the law is wrong. My understanding was that an inquest is aimed at factually determining cause of death.

Your understanding is wrong. Look up the Hillsborough inquest.

It is not just about clinical cause of death - they look at a range of causative factors and can deliver complex narrative verdicts.

I don't believe for a minute there's only 58 fatalities

Making Merry, I just googled it and read the basic information, which included the possible verdicts. I'm not an expert.

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/law-sheets-no-1-unlawful-killing.pdf

Is it possible that some of the tenants weren't in the building? I recall reading and seeing that the mosques were the first to react because some were up and open for iftaar - is it possible that maybe at least some of the tenants were there?

58 does still feel low, and I do wonder if there are more unknown - whole families, people from overseas etc.

He said they had over 400 reported missing from the tower. I'd just like them to announce how many residents they are able to confirm have definitely survived.

"CaptainMarvel* they are not going to put vulnerable traumatised people into household of starangers. No matter how good the intention, that's just not suitable. If someone was offering a vacant property, they might have had quite a different response.

The people need proper temporary accommodation, to cover several months without repeated moves whilst new permanent homes are identified. Emergency accommodation is much more likely to be hotel than unknown household; very few actually slept communally, even for one night.

Single, the 30 are part of the 58, so 58 in total. Although that could rise.

What he said was that at one point, they had a number of 400 people had been reported as being in the flats.

They have found out that 342 of those people are safe (injured or got out in time or weren't actually there).

That leaves 58 people missing, presumed dead.

They have a definite number of 30 confirmed deaths. (That means 28 people unaccounted for, but no bodies found as yet. He also asked for anyone who got out, but hasn't yet contacted the police, to do so as quickly as possible, so they can stop looking).

They have moved 16 bodies to the mortuary. How this relates to the figure of 30 confirmed deaths is that I think the remaining 14 people are in the building and the bodies have been seen, but they haven't been able to move them yet for safety/evidence reasons. He did say that they had to stop sending personnel into the building yesterday for safety reasons and have only been able to resume that today).

However, he did also say the number might rise. This is because it is possible that there were people in the building that haven't been reported to the police as potentially being in the building.

'They have found out that 342 of those people are safe (injured or got out in time or weren't actually there).'

Did he actually say that? I did not hear him say that.

The BBC is not reporting 58 as the final figure. Just today's update

I'm guessing that they will have had multiple reports of the same people missing in all of the chaos. There will have been empty flats I assume, people not home, residents who had visitors. It's a nightmare particularly IF the council don't have some sort of starting figure of who should have been living there.

Who is he sorry? So 342 are safe?

If 342 are safe that is incredibly good news.

Squirmofeels, this was reported in the Guardian today:

'Nachmany sent the list to senior workers at KCTMO and the local council. However, as yet she has not received any news that any of the offers have been matched to families or individuals in need. It comes amid reports that displaced residents are still sleeping on floors and have not been housed.'

I can't remember the precise wording but it was along the lines of "it's possible that will rise further but we are hoping that it will not" - it was not nearly so "today's update" in tone as the previous ones which were very much "we can confirm x deaths but this will rise further".

I am convinced he did not say that. For it to even be true the number reported missing would have to be exactly 400.

Agree, it'll be wonderful if 342 are safe.

Thank you for clarification.

He didn't say that Sylvia but 400-58= 342

He did clearly say that from the initial figure of 400 (or 400+) people, they now had a figure of 58 missing, presumed dead, and they have, within that number identified 30 bodies, 16 of whom they have moved to the morgue.

It could be that some of those people are safe, some were never there, some are in hospital or some are no longer considered missing because there was some kind of double counting (e.g.more than one missing person's report with slightly different spellings). So they aren't saying x number of people are safe, but they can say that there are still 58 people who are dead or missing, presumed dead.