Wheelchair Vs Buggy

[Twinning546]

I've just been reading about Doug Paulley being successful in the supreme court regarding pushchairs having to move for a wheelchair user. How does this work practically if there isn't any space to move to and you've already paid for your journey? Considering I travel with a large double pram with twins under 1 I can't just fold it up and sit with a child on my lap so I'd have to get off the bus.

Not read thread but I do feel bus drivers need to make sure people have sorted themselves out before they move off - I have seen women with babies, small dc - old people all nearly fall or actually fall because bus has jerked off.

Sirzy - absolutely agree that it's not an excuse to refuse to vacate the wheelchair space. However, not always an option to find two people sitting to hold two newborn babies whilst folding a buggy and lifting it into the storage post c-section on a crowded bus. Nor to be able to count on this when trying to get off the bus.

That's why I used to simply get off the bus and wait for another one if a wheelchair user wanted to get on the bus.

This could take a very long time, as single buggy users weren't always willing to fold their buggies to make space for a double buggy.

I'm not arguing at all against wheelchair users absolute priority and right to the space.

I'm arguing that some parents have different access needs by dint of their situation and it's incompatible to accept this alongside supporting the priority of wheelchair users.

FrancisCrawford - "isn't about "supporting the priority of wheelchair users". It is acknowledging they have a right in law to that space which anyone else must vacate if it is required by a person in a wheelchair"

Different way to say the same thing.

"Hopefully these will be rare and practical solutions will be found to assist anyone who is unable to fold their buggy solo" - I think I've just described that these aren't rare, practical solutions aren't available and that they are very limiting to a particular group of people (parents/carers of very young multiples).

Acknowledging the right in law of one group of people doesn't mean we have to pretend that issues don't exist for other groups.

Just noticed our local bus company have updated their Conditions of Carriage to state " If a wheelchair or scooter user wishes to board, you are required to fold your pushchair" Pretty sure it used to say requested, not required.

This policy thankfully gives drivers clear guidelines so the onus is no longer on them to act as judge in the case of deciding who needs the space more. They have enough to do without the added hassle of arguing with caregivers & wheelchair users! As it's in the Conditions of Carriage, it's now out of their hands.

It'll help wheelchair users as they are more likely to be able to travel now and the bus company has a clear policy which allows no room for personal interpretation. It will hopefully ease the anxiety for wheelchair users as I know many who have been shouted at by caregivers when asking them to fold buggies sadly.

It may well help caregivers too, as when we all board buses, we agree to their conditions of carriage, which in this case are now very clear. Therefore, caregivers know if they want to board a bus, they may be required to fold their buggy, meaning they can anticipate having to do this & plan accordingly which is much better than not knowing what is expected each time they travel.

I didn't know about the ruling, but I know that there have been signs up for a number of years now asking pushchair users to make room for wheelchair users. I was asked to fold up my daughter's pushchair when she was little to make room for a wheelchair. It was a bit tricky to do as the bus was very crowded, and my daughter wasn't walking yet, so I had to do it one-handed! But wheelchair users don't have the option to fold up their wheelchair, so of course it's the right thing to do.

Even with this ruling, wheelchair users are still making a nuisance of themselves.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38795688

A wheelchair user was refused space on a bus because a pushchair was on board, days after the Supreme Court ruled on the issue.
Kirsty Shepherd, from Wakefield, West Yorkshire, said the Arriva driver told her she could not get on, even though there was enough room.
It came five days after the Supreme Court said bus drivers must be more accommodating to wheelchair users.
Arriva Buses said it was investigating "as a matter of urgency".
Ms Shepherd said the woman with the pushchair on the Rothwell to Wakefield bus was happy to move, but the driver still would not let her on.

In the case that went to the Supreme Court, wheelchair user Doug Paulley took action against First Bus after he was refused entry to a bus
in 2012 when a mother with a pushchair refused to move.
The bus had a sign saying: "Please give up this space if needed for a wheelchair user."
The court found the company should do more to persuade non-wheelchair users to move from the wheelchair space, but did not have the legal power to remove them.

Ms Shepherd said the Arriva driver told the passengers to get off, saying it was her fault the journey could not go on.
"He leant forward and said 'I can't let you on love, I've got a pushchair on'," she said.
"I said 'well please ask her to move'. He said 'I can't do that'.

Doug Paulley could not get on a FirstGroup bus because a woman with a pushchair refused to move from the wheelchair space
"The people on the bus started shouting saying 'just get the next bus, we've got homes to get to'."
She said she spoke to the bus driver's manager, but he was still not willing to let her on board.
"He let the passengers get off and have a go at me... it was just not fair."
Arriva said: "Our customer service team have had extensive conversations with Ms Shepherd about the incident and we are investigating this as a matter of urgency.
"We are in the process of downloading the CCTV footage and speaking to those involved.
"We have promised to conclude this investigation swiftly."

Frustrating that people apparently decided to blame the wheelchair user and not the driver, who was clearly just being a lazy git given the buggy user was happy to move.

Frustrating that people apparently decided to blame the wheelchair user and not the driver, who was clearly just being a lazy git given the buggy user was happy to move.

The interesting thing is how the case proceeds. In light of the SC ruling, it's clear that the bus company appears to be liable. They have failed in their obligations as stated by the SC judgement.

We don't do punitive damages in the UK (I leave that for another debate). However we do have "consequential damages". It's quite possible that these could add up (almost inevitable, if you thinl about the extra costs associated with wheelchair transport).

I wonder if some bus companies start to refuse to carry unfolded buggies as a result ?

Doug Paulley has openly said he will fully support non-disabled people with buggies in fighting for a space on buses. It took disabled people 30 years of protests, campaigning, lobbying parliament and chaining themselves to buses for them to get the wheelchair space.

I've posted on a few forums offering help to start the long fight and campaign for a buggy space by law but no-one, not a single person, has replied. Other people are willing to use the wheelchair space, yet disabled people, who did all the hard work, still face abuse from people (not just caregivers but other bus users) when they ask for the space they fought for.

The need for a designated buggy space is obvious given the numerous problems wheelchair users have using their own space. That way, caregivers with twins, post c-section, lots of shopping can stop worrying. Please start a campaign for a buggy space so everyone can travel without fear. Maybe people will respond to a well-known voice such as yours. Disabled people will support your fight.

Our buses have them. It states buggy space and has two fold down chairs. Its def buggy not wheelchair as it doesn't have the safe back to reverse into although presumably they wouldn't refuse to let a wheelchair user to use it

I think all buses should have separate spaces for wheelchairs and prams

Like the buses in my city

The need for a designated buggy space is obvious

Or the need to use folding buggies ?

Some bus companies have dual wheelchair and buggy spaces, with a request for people with buggies to fold them or move if a wheelchair gets on.

I do side-eye the "disabled people campaigned for 30 years to get spaces" thing. I've campaigned for disabled rights, and indeed have been a public transport user with a disability. Does that mean I get first dibs on any spaces? Does that mean anyone who never got around to campaigning should go to the back of the queue? No, of course not. It should go to need. I've always campaigned for accessibility for all, not for my corner only.

It would be great if people did fold their pushchairs (if they are able). I don't want to assume every caregiver can fold a pushchair, hence the need for a designated space for those who may have 2 children in a double pushchair, or a lot of shopping etc, so they don't have to fold if the w/chair space is needed by a w/chair user. Arriva buses have now made it a requirement as part of their Conditions of Carriage so no-one should be boarding their buses with a pushchair that is unfoldable.

Doug Paulley's recent blog addresses the issue of the battle w/chair users fought to get a w/chair space, without which they would not be able to get a bus. So, as he says, it would be kind if people would vacate when it's needed.

I've been kicked, spat on, yelled at, grabbed and physically moved by caregivers who refused to fold pushchairs (all videos of assaults were handed into the police and charges brought). As a w/chair user I am terrified of getting the bus due to the attitude of a lot of other passengers. I know it's only a small minority of people, but when it happens weekly, it's frightening as I can't run away.

This would be a hard one for me, my daughter is 3 and is in a buggy that is used as a wheelchair she is able to walk but not when she's in pain, so how does this work for her tho?

Oh just to add she has Hypomobillity

so how does this work for her

If your buggy is occupying a wheelchair space and a wheelchair user wishes to use the space the driver should ask you to move. If you refuse and the driver considers your refusal to be reasonable the driver should not take any further action. If the driver thinks you are being unreasonable they may require you to move and, if you continue to refuse, take steps to put pressure on you by, for example, refusing to move the bus for a few minutes. However, they cannot force you to vacate the wheelchair space.

If you are asked to move you should explain your daughter's condition to the driver. That should be enough to show that you are not being unreasonable.

I don't see why the parent with the pushchair has to get off. Both times that a wheel-chair user has gotten on the bus while I have had my buggy in the wheelchair space, we communicated and it turns out they felt bad for me and didn't want me to get off the bus - I personally would feel very guilty making anyone vacate a bus just for me. Both times I have moved my pushchair to let the wc-user into the spot, let them park up against the backrest, and then managed to slot the buggy back in the space in front of them - moving it again if they need to get off before me. If you have a buggy it is entirely possible to fit a wheelchair in the space with you without having to fold etc.

It is Lilac but they're only meant to carry two of wheelchairs and pushchairs so if there's already two pushchairs on, one ox you needs to collapse or get off. MummieBear on the other hand should not be expected to move

The ruling didn't go nearly far enough. It should be a requirement for non-wheelchair-users to vacate the space for wheelchair users, and the bus doesn't move an inch until it's done.

I wonder if some bus companies start to refuse to carry unfolded buggies as a result ?

We can only hope.

I personally would feel very guilty making anyone vacate a bus just for me.

But you don't feel guilty for being a selfish cunt?

*I wonder if some bus companies start to refuse to carry unfolded buggies as a result ?

We can only hope*

Why? Just enforce the ruling. Why make peoples lives impossible rather then making things fair by enforcing the rules. How does someone with young twins catch an empty bus if they can't take on the buggy? Why shouldn't I be allowed on a bus when my son is on his feed just because its not safe to get him out at that point? I frequently wait for the next bus. Today the bus driver on tube half hourly service let us sort ourselves out so that the person in the wheelchair got their space but neither of the pushchairs had to wait for the next or the next or the next bus . It's perfectly possible for people to do it right without banning innocent people from the bus

Three-legged

That was unneccary. Nothing she said was selfish enough to be called a cunt imo. She was just saying that with communication if there's 1 buggy and 1 wheelchair then it's possible for both to stay on. I too have been in that situation where I was about to vacate the bus for a wheelchair user but they told me to stay on and slot in after them. What is so bad about that?

I would happily vacate a bus for a wheelchair user but if we can manage to both fit then that's even better, and there are wheelchair users out there that are happy to do that with us. If not, vacate.