Wheelchair Vs Buggy

[Twinning546]

I've just been reading about Doug Paulley being successful in the supreme court regarding pushchairs having to move for a wheelchair user. How does this work practically if there isn't any space to move to and you've already paid for your journey? Considering I travel with a large double pram with twins under 1 I can't just fold it up and sit with a child on my lap so I'd have to get off the bus.

ThisYearWillBe Better...............The Fairy Caravan. What pisses me off as well is the anonymity of the woman in the cream coat was protected. Her face was blanked out.

Now if she was being racist it wouldnt have been and RIGHTLY SO!

But why are disablists getting protected like this.

Why is taking a taxi more of an option for a buggy user than a w/c user

Because for several years disability benefits have been getting cut and taxis are more expensive.

And im willing to bet there were a few on the bus in that clip i linked that voted for this!!!

What a depressing 'debate' - pitting wheelchair users against parents of small children. The real question we should be asking is what can be done to make buses fit for purpose, so that they work as far as possible for everyone.

Luckily the bus companies in my city have done just that. They've reduced the downstairs seating so that there are dedicated spaces for both wheelchair and buggy users. Fully able-bodied people are expected to go upstairs, leaving downstairs seats (including the folding seats if no wheelchair or buggy user requires the dedicated spaces) by common consent for those of more limited mobility or carrying heavy stuff. I travel everywhere by bus, and since our buses changed to this configuration I haven't seen a single altercation about space. I'm not sure why other places can't do the same.

Archery this particular debate is rightly framed as wheelchairs v buggies

I disagree about the "rightly" entirely, Francis. It's "rightly" about able-bodied people using resources where disabled people should get priority.

And hear, hear, mornington.

I have to admit I have no idea as to how the benefits available to a w/c user compare to the ones available to a parent of small child (we are not talking about the ones driving, which are usually the most affluent ones) Helena

I assumed it must be similar, considering work might not be an option, either because of disability or childcare costs higher than salary. But I might be wrong.

Haven't read the full thread because I can guess where it's been going. OP, when I had small twins and was only able to access buses for transport, I did indeed take the buggy off the bus for a wheelchair user. That's only right because that's what the space is for. This is comment is not about buggy trumps wheelchair or vice versa.

HOWEVER, as a parent of twins my only options were to walk, take the bus or take a taxi (I didn't drive). I could use the overground or underground train because I couldn't get the buggy up the stairs - carrying a double buggy with twins in it is not the same as carrying a single buggy, and escalators aren't an option for twin parents either. The only, very expensive, buggy that was suitable for this sort of thing with newborn twins was a mountain buggy, I believe, and that didn't fit through my front door.

If there was another buggy user on the bus, I couldn't get on, unless they folded up their buggy. This meant hours waiting for buses, or walking for miles. I took the latter option usually and have permanent pain from walking so far post c-section and SPD pushing a twin buggy.

There were lots of other things I couldn't access as a parent to small twins - swimming classes, baby cinema, etc. I had to work hard to get the library and local cafes and music classes to allow me to take my double buggy in.

I needed my buggy. It was my extra pair of hands. I couldn't carry two babies and open a door, or buy things at the counter, etc, etc.

It is really different when you have twins. I don't know if there is more that TAMBA could do to educate - I suspect they don't have the resources.

The good news is, with twins, it's transient, and by the time my DC3 came along I had two little people holding doors open for me and carrying stuff - not that I needed it because I only had one baby. For a lot of people who use wheelchairs, it's not transient. And even though I was on my own with the babies for 85% of the time, I still got respite some of the time.

sorry "couldn't use"

T1 I could have written your post - except I don't have a 3rd DC (how did you find the courage after twins??!).

We will have to agree to disagree, Francis.

Livingonthedancefloor - 4 years and a moment of throwing caution to the wind after my GP told me I was too old

I don't care where the wheelchair user is going or where the parent is going, medical appointment or coffee date, the space is the wheelchair users.

morning to crescent I posted upthread saying pretty much the same as you. This debate is pointless. People should be lobbying for bus companies to use the kind of buses which are accessible to both groups. They are already available and could be phased in as stock is replaced. This debate does not need to happen, one group of bus users should not be in conflict with another over who has the right to travel.

That should be morningtoncrescent, stupid tablet making me look like a nincompoop

I'm just so sick of all the "Whataboutery" on this thread (and others like it) imagining "what about a woman with a C section and triplets, who has to walk 10 miles if she can't get on the bus?" etc etc etc

The ruling starts to cut through this, and requires that everyone recognise a simple basic fact: wheelchair spaces are for wheelchair users. So no wheelchair user has to be subject to some random other passenger's judgement that their need is greater than that of the wheelchair user.

Where I live buses have a big standing area in the middle to accommodate more than one wheelchair and several buggies. Why the hell does the UK - which is so much more advanced than where i live - insist on making life so hard for parents and disabled people?

Someone commented here that buggies should be banned from buses, parents with babies in buggies should walk not use buses (like on to the old days). How utterly ridiculous - life is very different now. For some people buses are necessary to transport infant or infants to childcare (not everyone can be flexible with working hours, location, transport method), accompaying older children to school etc. Or simply for doing shopping.

I also think that i SOME cases a parent travelling with children COULD be more vulnerable than a wheelchair user.

They have similar buses where I live in the UK, not all are like that but I see them being used more and more so I'm guessing that is the direction the local bus companies are going in. As I've said already on this thread, instead of arguing about who has the most right to use buses, parents and wheelchair users should band together to lobby for that style of bus to be introduced in all parts of the UK.

See everyone going on about umbrella buggies...are you serious. They are so bad for newborn babies

I had one which was suitable from birth. I chose it precisely because it was easy to fold - not because I used it on a bus, but because I had to fold it and unfold it when getting it and out of the car. I had the option of a beautiful pram from a friend of my mum's but I would have had to take the front wheel off to get it in the boot, so I decided on a Maclaran buggy instead.

living on a dance floor: " But I understand you wouldn't do it for a baby in a buggy? Why?

Because it is actually really quite difficult to do. She requires a lot of assistance I can't always give, she can be very unsteady and sometimes it can be painful for her to sit on a bus seat, depends on the design and I have to hold her constantly so she doesn't fall off as she has no sense of balance. The wheelchair whilst "folded" (which actually is just making it a wee bit narrower) is really unstable and can't be stowed. Good chance it will fall on the buggy, not a good situation.

That said, I wouldn't refuse to do it for a buggy user, (and never actually said that) But it would be a judgement call. As is my right, given the spaces are prioritised for a wheelchair user so I don't actually have to explain my reasoning to anyone to anyone

As for all the other whiny "what if, whyyyyyyyy" questions - give it a rest. If you don't like the arguments which a "trotted out" then stop arguing. Accept a person with a disability has priority over a person without a disability and move on. Or if you really want to know why someone with a wheelchair gets this priority. Go and borrow one and spend an entire day in it. Then you'll understand. Hopefully that day won't be one of the tiny number you have to attend an appointment for. It's not even February yet and we've already had 3 disability related appointments with our daughter.

As for the money, disabled adults are twice as likely to live in low income households.

It is laughable to suggest their financial penalty is the same as having to pay for childcare. Extra costs for an adult with a disability on average are £550 a month. If they are entitled to the maximum rate of PIP these costs is £360. So, month on month they are short on what is covered (worth also noting this in an average and some run to costs of over £1000.) That's every month their whole adult life. They are far more likely not to be working or working a low wage. It's not a cost that you can work a few years to mitigate for then know it will be over in a few years. People with disabilities are chronically less well off than their able bodied peers and it's actually quite offensive to hear "oh but childcare costs are so expensive". Don't you think the person with a disability could have children and have to pay childcare costs too?

Originalfoolgirl Brava!! An excellent post, particularly a) Accept a person with a disability has priority over a person without a disability and move on and b) your stuff about money/funding/disability often leading to low income. So so true.

I would love to have to pay childcare costs for ds. Unfortunately I had to give up a full time job to be his carer. Even with childcare costs I was much better off when I could work!

ThisYearWillbeBetter Fri 20-Jan-17 08:17:20
I'm just so sick of all the "Whataboutery" on this thread (and others like it) imagining "what about a woman with a C section and triplets, who has to walk 10 miles if she can't get on the bus?" etc etc etc

I'm hoping that wasn't aimed at my post because I think I was quite clear that I actively support the priority of wheelchair users and fully understand that having baby multiples doesn't equate to having a permanent disability, although it does present genuine challenges. The point I was making is that there are other transport users for whom simply folding up the buggy (or spacing out their children as pp suggested) is not an option.

But if someone can't fold the buggy themselves they have the option of asking one of the other passengers on the bus to help them do so. If they refuse to do that then that isn't the wheelchair users fault and isn't an excuse to not allow the wheelchair user to use the only space accessible to them