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News

Transgender pupil wins right to wear girls uniform

269 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/10/2016 21:34

metro.co.uk/2016/10/18/transgender-pupil-wins-fight-to-wear-girls-school-uniform-6198932/#mv-a

I think it is absolutely right that a school pupil of whichever sex can wear the traditional uniform of either sex.

However, I am slightly more concerned that this individual has also been granted the right to use toilet and changing facilities of the opposite sex - this bothers me as these areas are sex segregated for good reason Sad

This is in the UK btw.

OP posts:
Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:06

Why is it so important to you how some stranger feels when they wake up and acts through the day?

When they are trampling on my rights, that women died fighting for then it does matter.

Does the statement you made and I've highlighted apply to every single person on the planet or just to those who you deem it to? Because according to your statement noone should fight racism because it shouldn't bother us how the racist acts or what they do as long as they wakes up and goes to sleep feeling like their unique selves.

DollyBarton · 20/10/2016 10:07

Amalfi, I personally think you can discriminate between criminals and people who attack minorities vs people who are simply a minority. I can see a clear difference there.

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:07

Does it matter what I think living like a woman is? It what you think it is? and yet another attempt to deflect the question. Well done.

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:09

Amalfi, I personally think you can discriminate between criminals and people who attack minorities vs people who are simply a minority.

so discrimination is acceptable then. Good. Then I choose to discriminate against those who have penises and wish to use female spaces and facilities and not be called transphobic.

you can't have it both ways either discrimination is not acceptable or it is

SuburbanRhonda · 20/10/2016 10:12

I don't think anyone on here would deny a trans woman the right to wake up feeling like a woman (whatever that means) and go to bed feeling the same. We're not talking about policing what's in people's heads. What we're talking about is the effect of that thinking on the rights of actual women.

And in the case of maybe's DD the effect of that thinking on the right of a student to challenge an issue without being shut down and threatened with the label "transphobic"..

DollyBarton · 20/10/2016 10:15

Amalfi, I'm not trying to deflect or even attack you. I guess our difference in thinking is that I don't believe any women's rights are violated by giving transgender women rights. You can still go to the toilet regardless of what access is granted to transgender women. You feeling scared is not a reason to take away transgender women's rights. Some people are scared to go outside, but we don't give them the right to remove all people that scare them so that they can go out. Transgender women in ladies toilets cannot be treated like criminals.

SuburbanRhonda · 20/10/2016 10:17

You feeling scared is not a reason to take away transgender women's rights

Remind me again of the reason why some transgender women are demanding the right to use women's toilets and changing rooms.

2kids2dogsnosense · 20/10/2016 10:18

So - this young person regards himself as female, and is uncomfortable sharing the male changing abilities and toilets, and so h is accomadated.

What about all of the females who are uncomfortable sharing the changing facilities and toilets with an individual who is biologically male? Do they have no rights?

I think the Education Authority should make this a test case and take it to appeal. This is totally wrong.

Lavatories, changing facilities and sleeping accommodation need to be assigned on the basis of (birth) sex, not of gender. This goes for schools, shops, swimming baths and any public facilities.

I may be wrong (I don't really keep with these things) but I haven't seen any instances of transgender women demanding to use men only facilities. It looks to me as though this is one of those "I-know-my-rights" situations which is going one-way only - and that way is in favour of the biological male.

Le plus ca change, le plus la meme temps. Angry

For every step that women take forward to achieve equality and safety, it seems that they are forced back again.

2kids2dogsnosense · 20/10/2016 10:20

Rhonda
Remind me again of the reason why some transgender women are demanding the right to use women's toilets and changing rooms.

Spot on, Rhonda - spot on.

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:23

I'm not actually willing to be told what I can and can't question. If a male body is coming into women's spaces, then I absolutely am going to question it. Seems to me there are a lot of questions being asked, and certain questions don't seem to be possible to answer in a sensible mannerHmm

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:23

DollyBarton

So Dave Muscato has the right to use female spaces and facilities (I am talking about all the spaces and facilities for women like rape centres and not bathrooms and you know it's not as simple as that) and I should accept it?

I should accept that someone who is a man, presents as a man, has fully functional male sexual organs and claims to be a woman should be accepted as one?

Some people are scared to go outside, but we don't give them the right to remove all people that scare them so that they can go out.

anorexics think they are fat. We don't give them liposuction to make them feel better do we?

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:25

I can just imagine the harassment and threats that any school or local council who attempted to stand up against a trans pupil would get. Aggressive male bodied people wearing dresses and giving out rape threats. I'm absolutely horrified that this is what it's come to. Ruling by fear.

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:27

I may be wrong (I don't really keep with these things) but I haven't seen any instances of transgender women demanding to use men only facilities. It looks to me as though this is one of those "I-know-my-rights" situations which is going one-way only - and that way is in favour of the biological male.

here
and here

It seems that only MTF can use female bathrooms while FTM have to also use female facilities.

devilinmyshoes · 20/10/2016 10:34

anorexics think they are fat. We don't give them liposuction to make them feel better do we?

the equivalent would be making them fat, which we do (sort of)

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:36

Would the equivalent be making them fat? I think it would be helping them to be thinner so that their dreams of being thin can match up with their actual body

devilinmyshoes · 20/10/2016 10:39

No, the mismatch is between experiencing oneself as being fat while actually being at a very low weight, or experiencing oneself as being male while actually being female.

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:43

Yes I suppose so. It's reacquainting them with the reality of what their body actually is though isn't it? Not saying, no you're right you really are fat. It's saying you're ill and your beliefs about yourself are delusional

devilinmyshoes · 20/10/2016 10:44

It's not a delusion in either case.

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:46

In both cases it is a belief which is demonstrably not true

2kids2dogsnosense · 20/10/2016 10:47

Thankyou Amalfi

This is very illuminating - so transgender feels CAN'T use male facilities.

Even when full hormonal therapy is in place, and it's not just someone saying "I've got a frock on - I'm a girl", or Look at my jockstrap - I'm a boy."

So once again, women (born female and identifying as female) are being kicked in some metaphorical goolies.

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:48

2kids2dogsnosense

It would seem so.

Amalfimamma · 20/10/2016 10:50

It's not a delusion in either case

It's not true either.

Anorexics are not fat and women don't have penses

devilinmyshoes · 20/10/2016 10:51

Gender dysphoria is a disturbance of the experience of the self, not a disorder of thought (which is what delusions are). A delusion is a fixed belief not based in reality that cannot be understood in the context of culture. What makes something delusional is not whether it is true or not (delusions can be true, and false beliefs are often non-delusional) but the way a belief is held and the reasoning behind that belief. If someone believes something to be true despite all evidence to the contrary with absolute conviction, and even uses evidence to the contrary to support the belief, that may be suggestive of a delusion. Further, if the reasoning makes sense, it is not a delusion even if the belief may seem odd. For example a man may believe his wife is having an affair because she comes home late from work and is more aloof. The reasoning makes sense, even if his belief is untrue, thus it is not a delusion (but may be an overvalued idea). On the other hand if a man believes his wife is having an affair because Donald Trump winked at him on the television, then that is a delusion, because the percept that "donald trump winked at me" does not explain why I know my wife is having an affair. Delusions also move from thinking that into knowing that. It is not just something someone thinks, but something they know with absolute conviction despite reasoning that does not make sense.

Now, someone could have delusions about their sex. In fact, it is not uncommon in the course of schizophrenia and even mania. But if a man had delusions about being a woman, they would have absolute conviction in that belief and the reasoning wouldn't make sense or would be related to perceptual distortions. For example, a man may say "my name is jessica, I heard angels tell me that my parents lied to me all these years because satan got to them and they wanted to stop me carrying the son of god" then he would be delusional. A woman may believe she is a man named mike because she received the wrong mail (addressed to mike) and at that moment she knew she was really mike. Here there is a delusional perception (interpreting an actual occurrence in a distorted way).

A further example: A man may go to the doctor for a cervical smear, who notes he has male external genitalia. The dr states that she cannot perform a smear. The man becomes irate, stating he does not have a penis but a slightly larger than normal clitoris but wishes to have a smear as he was concerned about his risk of cervical cancer which he knows can kill women such as himself. If the man believes this to be true, this too would be an example of delusion. Does that make sense?

ageingrunner · 20/10/2016 10:51

We need to be clear about the difference between material facts and beliefs that some people might have

2kids2dogsnosense · 20/10/2016 10:52

*females, not feels

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