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MSBP: Lost Mothers 2nd thread

331 replies

GillW · 16/06/2004 16:23

New thread beacuse Bunglie needs the existing ones to be temporarily archived (and the last one was getting so-o-o-o-o long...)

OP posts:
Bunglie · 26/06/2004 15:14

I saw it was on, ment to video it, but did not think it was a good idea to watch it, guess what, I accidentally ??????videoed the footie. Did any one watch it. I think you can contact chan. 4 and they will let you have a copy, just something someone said to me, anyone know if there is any truth in it?

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 15:55

Aaaagh! , I have just phoned the solicitors who destryed my files. Yes, they tried to put me through to the voice mail AGAIN. I said no, and was put through to another partner, who refused to discuss anything and said that the person dealing with it would phone me back this pm.
I thought they should at least apologise?
Am I entitled to compensation for personal items of mine that they destroyed do you think?
I have sent them 5 signed letter of 'authority' with no idea as to where/whome they are going to.
I do now know that the SS dept do not have the 'positive' reports saying that I do not have MSpB, so It seems mine are the only ones, but they are not complete. I think they should get these, don't you? But how?
Do you think they should have at least sent me an update, and not just a letter sayig the want copies ao all I have and will pay reasonable photocopyin costs. (what about the gagging order), I can't but have, take them to a photocopiers.
Should I give them a list of reports I want? We know Meadows has conveniently shredded his. Another of my 'expert witnesses (in my favour) has died!
Oh What should I ask them when they phone back? HELP URGENTLY NEEDED, so I don't go off like a mad idiot!

GillW · 26/06/2004 16:09

Bunglie - you need to impress upon them that it is not merely a case of them not having kept papers which they should have done (they may be of the opinion that it's a file in a storeroom and who's really going to miss it), but that the papers they should have are essential for your case to be reviewed, as it fits the criteria for review as ordered by Margaret Hodge (you do not have to tell thame that the SS are saying "no review required" at the moment). That should get them into the time-is-of-the-essence mode because it could be pretty embarassing for them if it came out that they had wrongly disposed of them, and your case could not be reviewed because of it. Yes tell them which reports they SHOULD have, which you don't have copies of, and see what their response is. It probably wouldn't hurt to drop the term "Office for the Supervision of Solicitors" into the conversation if they don't seem to be pulling their finger out - I rather think that might concentrate minds somewhat.

OP posts:
Bunglie · 26/06/2004 16:20

Thanks GillW, that helps a lot.
Have you seen the 'Southall Guilty' thread this mornng, Frogs is back.......
I shall put in a quick link

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 16:20

OOps yes you have, just reading your reply?

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 17:36

Ahhhhhhgh ......Ahhhhhhhhgh

Sorry they have just phoned me back, the solicitors it that is.
They are writing to the local authority to get their records, wrote they say 3 months ago and have not yet had an answer, did not chase it up or anything. OK that accounts for 1 of the letters of authority. the other 4 she said were 'just in case we need to contact someone else' Huh.
She said that she had spoken to the origional solicitor dealing with my case, she say, that the origional solicitor said I went over to her office and got all my personal items! huh! I was reliant on public transport, her office was 2 bus changes away and I could not physically have done it! but then who am I, why believe me?
She is still trying to find out why they were destroyed but the man in charge of the 'archive' can't remember my files! I supose that is that.
I gave her a list of expert witness reports (from my side, ie good ones) that I wanted copies of, explained one was dead and suspect other have retired!
I did say that I am instructing another solicitor, would not say who but it has nothing to do with this, told her it was about stopping dd from getting 'that' letter. She wanted to communicate via new solicitor not me. NO CHANCE!
I did slip in the bit about 'Office for the supervision of solicitors' and she said "That won't help you get your file reconstructed" .
She is going to write to me in the next 3-4 days and explain what she is going to do. I said we had this exact conversation 3 months ago, and I am still waiting. her reply, well that is because (name)old solicitors recollection of returning the documents and yours differ, she said you were going to store them in your loft. I lived in a ground floor flat at the time, as if I would say that!
Well lt's see what this letter says, but they are not making an effort, they do not accept responsibility, but do admit that they should not have been destroyed until dd is 18 and then I should have had personal property returned. She also said that they would have photocopied it and returned the origional, they certainly didn't. I was told the origional was needed and therefore entered into evidence as photocopies could be 'doctored'. Well I was well and truelly 'doctored'

Anyone got a cup of Bunglie calming Tea?

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 17:38

Oh yes I did put in about the review, but as she is or has written to the local authority she will find out that they say my case will not be reviewed. I hope that I can get it reviewed. I am so glad I have what documents I have and they are not getting their grubby little hands on them

GillW · 26/06/2004 17:49

Well the council not bothering to reply, and also claiming "no case to answer" on the need for a review when clearly their is, could come under the heading of maladministration (definition: It is maladministration if a council, for example:

  • Takes too long to do something;
  • Does not follow its own rules or the law;
  • Breaks its promises;
  • Gives you the wrong information;
  • Does not make a decision in the correct way.) The Ombudsmen can recommend a suitable remedy (which can include financial compensation) for complainants if they have been caused injustice as a result of maladministration by an authority. More info here
OP posts:
Bunglie · 26/06/2004 17:59

I needed a laugh and was sent THIS I guess they thought it would make me see the funn side of doctors etc, and I am not at all offende,

I would rather have a cup of tea!
Am just about to read your posting GillW, with my cup of tea!

Bunglie · 26/06/2004 18:00

GillW do you think I should go to the ombudsperson?

Zeberdee · 26/06/2004 18:23

I had to spell Zebedee wrong so it would let me have it Zeberdee (with an 'R' ....bong....bong
Do you think it will be too confusing if I change from Bunglie?

GillW · 26/06/2004 18:41

Bunglie - I believe you must have given the LA a chance to resolve the issue before you take your case to the ombudsman (there should be something on the council's website about complaints procedures - or write to the chief executive), and can then take it to the ombudsman afterwards if you do not get redress that way. This article gives an overview, or look here for the official how to complain info.

I also wonder if it is worth you getting in touch with a councillor in your old area? It strikes me that as you no longer live there then there is nothing on record about the questions being asked in your case - social services can effectively keep it to themselves and pretend to everyone else that it isn't happening. Difficult of course, given the gagging order.

OP posts:
Bunglie · 26/06/2004 18:46

Thanks GillW - I will read the link now, then I have to go off line for a whle Ahg -work!
Back later and thank you.
Oh and I have a cup of tea??

Kaz33 · 26/06/2004 19:58

Bunglie

THe best chance is to write a letter to the Managing Partner of the law firm just address it to Managing Partner.

Set out the details of the matter, what you are trying to do and why. Then reiterate that it needs to be dealt with and you needed this file. Complain that is not being helpful and can they sort it out. Be polite but firm.

If possible hint at some adverse publicity.

THe OSS will be no help at all - what you need is practical help now. I wouldn't bother with teh OSS, nothing will happen for ages and at the end of it what can they actually do. You need to find some way of getting the law firm onside.

Have you now got a solicitor ? Good.

Bunglie · 27/06/2004 13:45

Just to let you know I have lost the plot, posted this on another thread......

aaah aaahh (runs round in circles).
ooooh I'm all a quiver.
I am sat here in my mumsnet t-shirt, with 'hoodie' (mumsnet of course) on top. I did wear my mumsnet apron as I got my mlk ot of my fridge bearing my mumsnet fridge magnet, to make tea to drink from my mumsnet mug. I am clutching my mumsnet umbrella just in case it starts to rain whilst doing my mumsnet rubics cube.
Does THIS make me a member of the mumsnet club, please tell me the 'funny handshake' now?
Oooh - Sorry tech smiley badge is enough to scare the wotsits of a ...well you choose, and the 'virtual mother' badge is just too big. I have enough on to advertise the site how about a nice neat little pin badge? (badges free gift!)

In case you are wondering why? well I think I am a 'VIRTUAL MOTHER' as it all says. not a real one or a practicing mother if you know what I mean, I am almost, hence virtually a mother - do you understand what I mean. This way I never forget what mumsnet has done for me?

How do you do the rubics cube?

Back to normality and I shall get on with doing things, back later!
Bunglie.
Oh what do you all recon on Zeberdee as if you do a 'google' you get ME! and I dont want ap's to find the site????
more later
Bunglie or Zeberdee

mummytosteven · 27/06/2004 14:31

Just been looking at the link Gill W provided to the Channel 4 prog- did anyone see the programme and if so was there any explanation as to why the Wirral has such a high rate of children at risk by comparison to Oldham, and if this is linked to a particular paediatrician or hospital.

I also had a look at the link on the Channel 4 site to a page on MSBP and MSBP by proxy by the Mental Health Foundation, and was horrified by some of the symptoms mentioned:-

"treatments which are known to be effective are not working for some reason"

"People with Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy often seem selfless and devoted to the person they are caring for. They may also seem to be extremely helpful to nursing staff but react angrily if questioned or challenged by them."

If I felt that nursing staff were accusing me of lying or harming my child I would be pretty damn angry! Also just because treatment isn't working doesn't mean the mother must be at fault.

It seems that Meadows et al have set up a situation where the potential criteria are so wide that virtually any one could be accused of MSBP by proxy. Sorry if I already appear to be preaching to the converted, just I was horrified by the biased nature of the information that was provided by an organisation that ostensibly is meant to support people with mental health issues.

GillW · 27/06/2004 14:46

Bunglie - had you seen this in today's Guardian ?

Falsely blamed mother asks law lords for right to sue

A mother once accused by the paediatrician David Southall of faking her son's illness is taking a test case to Britain's highest court that could pave the way for parents wrongly accused of child abuse to sue for compensation for the psychological trauma they suffer.

The boy, now 15, was referred by a GP to Professor Southall at the age of six for assessment for a breathing monitor. The GP described him as "the most allergic patient I have ever known".

But Prof Southall thought it was a case of Munchausen syndrome by proxy - a rare form of abuse in which parents fake or induce illness in their children to draw attention to themselves - and wrote to the local authority's child protection coordinator that the boy was at risk of significant harm.

The boy, whose identity is protected by court order and is named only as M, was admitted to North Staffordshire hospital in Stoke-on-Trent.

He and his mother were seen by Prof Southall, who noted: "Agreed that mother is exaggerating symptoms. Example of fabricated illness. Need social service strategy meeting."

The boy's mother claims she suffered acute anxiety and depression due to the stress of dealing with the claims against her. Her son was removed from the at-risk register after three months when his condition was diagnosed as extensive and with severe allergies.

The mother has also filed one of seven complaints against the paediatrician which are awaiting a hearing by the General Medical Council.

Last week, the GMC ruled that Prof Southall had abused his professional position in accusing Stephen Clark, the husband of Sally Clark, of killing two of his baby sons, after seeing him interviewed on television.

Mrs Clark was in prison at the time for murdering her sons, but her conviction was later quashed on appeal.

The GMC will decide in August whether the professor's actions amounted to serious professional misconduct and, if so, whether or not to strike him off the medical register.

M's mother is bringing one of three claims by parents against NHS trusts and a local council for the psychological effects of wrong diagnoses that they had abused their children.

The parents lost in the lower courts and again in the court of appeal, where three judges ruled last year that it would be against public policy for parents to be able to sue over mistaken diagnoses. Lawyers for a number of other parents who were wrongly accused are keenly awaiting the outcome of the test appeal to the House of Lords in the autumn.

The second case concerns a girl who was nine when her father was wrongly suspected of sexually abusing her. She was kept in hospital for 10 days, social services became involved and her father was prevented from seeing her.

It later emerged that she had hurt herself in the genital area while riding her bicycle, and marks on her legs were diagnosed as Schamberg's disease, an unusual skin condition. The appeal court ruled that the girl could sue, but that her father could not.

The third appeal is by the parents of a baby who was taken into care after suffering a broken leg. She was returned nine months later after a diagnosis of brittle bone disease.

The parents in the three cases, represented by Allan Levy QC, are appealing against an appeal court ruling that it would not be "fair, just and reasonable" to allow their claims to go ahead, because their interests potentially conflicted with those of their children.

"In view of this", the judges concluded, "we consider that there are cogent reasons of public policy for concluding that, where child care decisions are being taken, no common law duty of care should be owed to the parents."

In M's case, the judges approved a statement by the county court judge who tried the case, which said: "Once a suspicion arises about someone who was the mother of a patient, there was a clear duty to invest in the interest of M, even if initiating the process might damage the mother."

OP posts:
aloha · 27/06/2004 14:53

Blimey Bunglie, it just gets worse doesn't it? What a pack of incompetents (and liars!). This promise of a 'review' just seems to be another government smokescreen to me. As for the 'symptoms' of MSBP, you really are damned either way. Appear unconcerned? MSBP! Act very worried? MSBP! Agree with your doctors? MSBP! Argue with them? MSBP! It's truly Kafka-esque, and most people have literally no idea.

Bunglie · 27/06/2004 16:22

Thanks GillW - As ever on the ball, what would we do without our 'Queen of the Links' ? Please I am not sure I fully understand it all, any chance of anyone putting it into laymans terms?

Aloha, Mummytoseven. Yes you are correct. It gets worse, and the law does not seem to help, but that is ALL we have to resort to.
Yes, also if you are accused of MSBP, ANYTHING, you do is a symptom. You can never ever be correct. They can turn anything against you and even drag up your past, or in my case my odd childhood, which then showed that I would not be a normal mother. You can not win.
It is very demoralising sometimes but you either give up, as I have on many an ocassion or you fight, which wears you down because you feel like you are hitting your head on a brick wall.
I some times think that 'they' think if they ignore your letters etc. you will give up, and you do. Until you start to feel angry again and I personally think that anger is destructive, so I try to think things through, but not very well.
That is why I bought some 'Virtual Mother'stuff , from mumsnet, as I am a virtual mother and I want to support and remember those who have kept me going through the ups and down.
Thank you.

beetroot · 27/06/2004 16:25

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Bunglie · 27/06/2004 16:36

Hiya Beety -I have not forgotten!

beetroot · 27/06/2004 16:44

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Bunglie · 27/06/2004 17:13

Got and replied Beety, What do you recon on 'DUDS' Good er, or havn't you read it?
Our GillW is not just a pretty face

Bunglie · 27/06/2004 17:14

Can anyone explain what the Guardian story says in laymans terms , it is the last bit I don't quite get about parents and children sueing or something?

dinosaur · 27/06/2004 17:21

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.