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MSBP: Lost Mothers 2nd thread

331 replies

GillW · 16/06/2004 16:23

New thread beacuse Bunglie needs the existing ones to be temporarily archived (and the last one was getting so-o-o-o-o long...)

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Janh · 23/06/2004 01:12

Talking of giant babygros, did any of you see the opening ceremony for Euro 2004? 100s of grownups running around in head-to-toe jersey all-in-ones in lovely shades like bright orange and lime green, no underwear, no lycra, everything that could wobble or bounce was wobbling or bouncing, it was a very very unappealing sight, the DSs and I were watching through our fingers and squawking.

Now if they had just curled up and sucked their thumbs it would have been fine

Bunglie · 23/06/2004 12:58

GillW, you ARE to blame, I have placed a bid on the 'babygrow' little fur lined neck and a pocket for my secret stash of sweeties and I love Eeyore. (remember the story where Owl took his tail for a bell pull, or his birthday, and he got a jar and popped baloon, he was soooo happy). Now that you all know what a sad person I am I shall let you know if I get it but the auction does not end for another 2 days and its new . Ooh I can feel my toes already curled up in it. Hmmmmmmm. back to reality in a minute

Bunglie · 23/06/2004 13:04

Mummy2seven. Thanks for info. I think, but am not yet sure, that I have a lawyer to take it on. I will know more soon. but thanks for the info, it is always useful to have.
I feel a lot more positive this morning but then I did wat a load of chocolate bickies last night (until I felt a bit ickey), and a good wallow in self pitty always seems to help. I just have to reassess things.
I am going to phone the solicitors later on so watch this space! (the ones who destroyed my notes)

GillW · 23/06/2004 13:37

Latest news - ONE child has been returned to parents after the post-Cannings reviews. But they are going to start a new enquiry into 30,000 past cases using "expert" witnesses.....

from yesterday's Evening Standard

Meadow row sparks shake-up of expert witnesses

A COMPLETE overhaul of medical evidence in cases of alleged child abuse was unveiled by the Government today.

Chief Medical Officer Sir Liam Donaldson will lead the review after several acquittals of women wrongfully convicted of murdering their children.

Angela Cannings, Sally Clark and Trupti Patel were all jailed chiefly on the discredited evidence of Professor Sir Roy Meadow that several cot deaths in a family were grounds to believe murder had been committed.

Children's Minister Margaret Hodge told the Commons the review will set a standard of competence for medical expert witnesses.

Mrs Hodge said that out of 5,000 current cases of suspected abuse, only one unnamed council had reversed a care order and handed the child back to parents. Only 47 cases involved disputed evidence. The minister announced a new survey into 30,000 historic cases.

Mrs Hodge said: "The concerns surrounding reliability of expert witnesses are ... substantial and are worsening the already acute problem courts are experiencing."

Sir Liam will report to ministers early next year, Sir Roy developed the theory women may deliberately harm their babies to draw attention to themselves. He called the condition "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy".

Mrs Hodge said she would order a review of cases involving Dr Colin Paterson, a discredited expert struck off this year over his theory of temporary brittle bone disease in children.

And this from Today's Independent:

Leading article: Expert medical opinions must be open to challenge

THE REVIEW of the role of medical experts in child abuse cases announced yesterday by the Children's minister, Margaret Hodge, is overdue. A succession of court rulings over the past 18 months in which women have been falsely accused of killing their children has gravely damaged faith in the trustworthiness of independent experts in these tragic cases. And this week's condemnation by the General Medical Council of the paediatrician David Southall who, on the basis of evidence gleaned from a television interview, accused a man of killing his baby son, has underlined the need to restore public confidence in the procedures for dealing with such cases.

The system needs to be re-balanced. Too much weight has been placed on the opinions of experts, such as Professor Roy Meadow, who have often used emotive language to get their point across in court. Such expert opinions are often taken as authoritative. If they conclude that a baby has died due to injuries inflicted by a parent then, more often than not, the jury reaches the same conclusion. This is in sharp contrast to civil cases, in which the opinion of any sort of expert is often treated with a greater degree of scepticism.

Of course, it is in no one's interests that we create a system whereby the burden of proof becomes so heavy that no parents are jailed for abuse to their children, or where it becomes almost impossible to remove children from families for their own safety.

Abuse does occur and Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, in which mothers supposedly harm their own children to get attention for themselves, has not been totally discredited as a theory. Investigations are already under way into the cases in which mothers have been imprisoned, on the basis of expert evidence, and the majority of verdicts that have been re-examined so far have been shown to be sound.

Nevertheless, public confidence can only be fully restored by a thorough investigation into how the criminal justice system operates in this intensely emotive area. While expert medical testimony will always play a role in such cases, it must never again be so uncritically accepted.

===
What Margaret Hodge actually told the commons yesterday was:

Medical Expert Witnesses

The Minister for Children (Margaret Hodge): I am making this statement with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health my right hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman).

Widespread concern has been expressed about the quality and validity of evidence given by medical expert witnesses following the recent appeals against convictions of mothers alleged to have been responsible for killing their children.

Medical evidence from expert witnesses plays an important part in court proceedings. Proceedings in the criminal and family courts are different from one another and do not follow the same processes. Requirements differ between them in relation to standards of proof, rules of evidence and admissibility of material. In criminal procedures, the competency of witnesses and the evidence of the prosecution can be challenged. The prosecution has to establish facts beyond reasonable doubt. In civil proceedings, evidence is assessed against a threshold of proof that is based on the balance of probabilities, though there too the input of expert witnesses may be tested by the parties to a case and by the court, before judicial determinations are made.

The concerns surrounding the reliability of expert witnesses are both complex and substantial and are worsening the already acute problem which the family courts are experiencing in finding experts of high standing to give medical evidence in proceedings, particularly where child abuse is suspected. Nonetheless, these issues of concern go beyond child protection or children's cases and involve the scientific basis for medical evidence given both in criminal and civil courts, and extend to other areas, such as forensic pathology.

We have already taken a number of steps. I have, as indicated in my statement of 23 February 2004, issued guidance to local authorities in Local Authority Circular I (2004)5, asking that they review the cases of children who are the subject of current care proceedings or where local authorities are exercising responsibility for children who are currently the subject of care and related orders. The results of an initial survey have today been placed in the Library. The survey was carried out by the Association of Directors of Social Services, and asked questions relating to the first stage review we asked local authorities to undertake. This first stage review covered all of the cases of children who are the subject of current care proceedings. This stage did not cover children who were already the subject of a care or related order. These cases will be reviewed as a second stage review and a more comprehensive picture will be obtained once this second stage has been completed.

Of the 150 local authorities with social services responsibilities, 130 have responded to the survey. The 130 local authorities reported that the number of cases in which disputed expert medical evidence features, or is anticipated to feature, is relatively small, arising in only 47 out of the 5,175 cases. There were a total of nine cases where the impact of this evidence on the live proceedings is already known. In one of these cases there has been a change in the local authority's care plan. In a further 38 cases, the proceedings are not yet sufficiently advanced for it yet to be clear whether the disputed medical evidence will result in a change to the care plan. The further survey of the second stage review, which is now being commissioned, will ascertain the extent to which the review of existing orders, perhaps 30,000 in number, has led to changes in current care plans. The results of this second survey will also be placed in the Library.

Nonetheless, the results of this initial survey should not give rise to complacency that the interests of children and their families are being optimally served. We are, therefore, also announcing today a programme of work to determine how best to ensure the availability and quality of medical expert resources to the family courts. Sir Liam Donaldson, the Government's Chief Medical Officer (CMO), will lead this work and plans to involve a wide range of interests, including judicial, I legal, clinical specialities, scientific, statistical and consumer interests, as well as health regulatory bodies. The CMO will determine how this work will be taken forward.

I also wish to take this opportunity to highlight the publication, on 14 May 2004, of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the family cases of Re LB and Re LU. This important judgment sets out clearly the ways in which the judgment in the case of Angela Cannings impacts on the family jurisdiction. I will be writing to local authorities, in order to draw their attention to this new judgment and to the action taken by the GMC in relation to Dr Colin Paterson's past performance as an expert medical witness in certain family cases.

The main thing that I'm pulling out from that is that the emphaisis is totally on whether the reviews are leading to changes in "current care plans".

Bunglie I think your case will be in what she is describing as the second stage review - but as the care arrangements are going to be well established in all those cases, and reversing them will cause disruption, I don't expect that they'll get any high figures from that one either. Note that they are not recording seperately cases where it might be considered that they got it wrong, but so long ago that they won't now reverse it, only those where they are changing the care arrangements - a fudge if ever there was one.

You need to get your MP to press for the "no change only because of elapsed time" figure to be included in the survey. He might also be able to get the more detailed survey results from the House of Commons library if they are of relevance to your case - it would at lease give you a reference as to what questions are actually being asked of Social Services Directors.

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Bunglie · 23/06/2004 14:02

Ah-just been outbid on MY babygrow, so am going to be sneaky here and not put in a bid until about 1 minut before the auction ends ....shush!

GillW · 23/06/2004 14:21

Bunglie - try this , or this - free tools for automated last minute bidding. You just put in the maximum you're prepared to pay and it places your bid with a few seconds to go without you having to be at your PC at the right time. And nobody has time to respond with a higher bid. I use these all the time and NEVER bid on anything more than 10 seconds before the end of an auction.

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Bunglie · 23/06/2004 17:39

Thanks GillW, Sounds like a great way to do it. I shall try it this way which do you think is the better, the 1st or 2nd one? I want that babygrow
Bunglie seems to have lost all sense of reality today and is going to have a nervous breakdown (just a mini- one) in about 10 minutes, lasting abut 2 minutes, because she feels coiled up like a spring and needs uncoiling.
Any sugestions on how to get rid of your frustrations gratefully accepted, perhaps I should start a thread, 'frustated, knicker fetish, Bunglie needs babygrow and hug'. Somehow I don't think anyone would bite, just send the men in white coats, whoops, 'scuse me I think they are at the door now, nice van, padded inside and how kind, bars on the window so no one can break in.....
Bunglies lost the plot, back soon!

GillW · 23/06/2004 17:46

Bunglie - I don't really choose between them, but sort of use both. The bidmate one allows you 3 attempts per week, the other one as many as you like, but only one at a time (or two if you sign up for the free snipe club bit and use that plus the public one). So I rarely use the bidmate one unless there a several things I want at the same time - like over a weekend when I'm away for example. Bidmate is probably a bit more professional (sends you emails if the bidding goes above your max for example) but I find it a bit annoying to have to go through lots of stuff about paying to get to the free part. (Oh and don't get alarmed on the Amherst Robots one if it shows your bid amount in dollars - it just bids in whatever the auction's currency is, but being typically American assumes the whole world works in dollars!)

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Janh · 23/06/2004 18:07

Gill, am v impressed with all this research, are you getting any work done today?

Would these reviews have happened without the Southall case? Or is it that they were coming anyway and have been announced now because of it?

(re Ebay, what happens if several people use the same automated bidding tool to try to buy the same item? )

GillW · 23/06/2004 21:31

From today's independent - more questions being asked about the validity of the "reviews" (and another name to note for future correspondence).

The shadow children's minister, Tim Loughton, said: "I remain concerned that all the reviews have been conducted entirely under the auspices of the local authorities who were key players in the original decisions, rather than through independent and objective outsiders.

"It is particularly worrying that there is such a large divergence between the number of cases reviewed by different authorities. Some are not undertaking any reviews at all.

"This will not inspire confidence that justice has now been done for every potential case of a child removed from parents unreasonably on questionable evidence."

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GillW · 23/06/2004 21:40

And from the BBC :

Alan Levy QC, an expert in child law, said ..... Mrs Hodge was "incredibly complacent" to let social services carry out an ongoing review of 30,000 past cases where children were taken into care on the basis of disputed medical evidence.

"To suggest the final person who should decide whether they should be looked into is the very party that brought the proceedings is completely unsatisfactory and will leave a bad taste," he said.

===
Bunglie - I hope this gives you some reassurance that there is still pressure being applied for a proper, independent review to take place.

Jan - I don't know what happens if two people try for the same item - as far as I know it's never happene to me yet. And yes I have got plenty of work done today (given that part of "work" involves putting together new digests I'm looking at a lot of these sources anyway, and just make a note of relevant things as I see them).

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Bunglie · 24/06/2004 01:00

I am still in disbelief that my vase to not fit into the parameters for review, that they arrived at their decission based on the Judges Judgement at the final wardship hearing and when I told them it was obviously wrong as I do abd can prove I have the illnes he (meadows) accused me of maunufacturing, they (the SS) would not even listen.
When I phoned my MP and he spoke to me, had me read the letter to him and he said he had spoken to 'margaret' about me, I asked what did she sugest, his reply was short and simple, 'legal action'.
I can not believe, although I have to, that they will only stop the letter if a JUDGE overturns the origional judgment and that I do not have a file at the SS dept, but that reports on me by Meadows are in my childrens file AND they have a right to see them. But I do not have a file of my own!
I asked them, (SSdept) to put it in writing in 7 working days, they said that they would oblige. Let's see.
Phoned solicitor, the one who is supposed to be reconstructing my file and for the 4th time I as put through to her voice mail. no explanation why they destroyed the file before they should have or even an apology for destroying personal items of mine such as certificates, photos and letters. I wonder sometimes if people are thinking I will go away if they ignore me for long enough. Maybe they are correct because to be honest it is exhausting, mentally, when you know that you are not getting anywhere.
If I fee like this what about all of the others . There must be hundreds of parents feeling like me and to be told to 'go and talk to your local adoption aftercare counselling service' for support, not action, but to stop you going bonkers I guess. I am starting to think that it is all too unbelievable that the general population just does not want to believe it and can't possibly take in the impact that these doctors have had on our lives not to mention the children who are/have been screwed up mentally because of them.
I am sorry, I have had my rant and I am off to buy a baby grow and curl up and try and put some perspective on this without it ruling my life and sending me over the edge.
I am not going to read this back to check my spelling etc. or I know I will not post it, so I apologise in advance if it is incomprehensible.

Janh · 24/06/2004 01:22

Bunglie, sweetheart, the General Public has no idea about all this - I know I wouldn't if not for mumsnet - if they had been introduced to you like us I'm sure they would be as mad as we are (but equally unable to actually do something, apparently). If "Margaret" says legal action that sounds like a green light to me!

Please don't let your solicitors ignore you into submission. They would love it if you went away and stopped bothering them but they were WRONG to destroy your papers and someone needs to deal with them. There will be a regulatory body for them (dunno who though - kaz?) and if they don't deal with you satisfactorily they need to be threatened with (and sorted out by) whoever it is.

Don't give up, don't let them bore you into quiescence, keep fighting, you have so much character and such a lot to gain!

beetroot · 24/06/2004 01:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

GillW · 24/06/2004 01:58

Regulatory body is the Office for the Supervision of Solicitors - see here

Bunglie - I am going to away from PC most of tomoorw - but on Sunday when I have time I'll try to draft you some ideas for a response to the SS if you like. We can quote the directive at them, word for word (they won't be expecting you to have seen it), and show how your case fits the criteria exactly, point by point - tell them who the medical experts were who were on your side, and disputing Meadow's conclusions, etc. And then challenge them to disprove it.

And we can also challenge the "refused to see Meadows" bit - say that you have concerns about that assertion, as you know for a fact it is not true, and can only conclude that the current director of Social Services (who is highly unlikely to have been there at the time) must have gleaned that from documents written at the time. Point out that if the claim is being taken from a report prepared by Meadow (and where else can it be from?) then it has extremely serious implications since it means that not only was his "diagnosis" wrong, but evidence was fabricated to support his hypothesis, and as such there may be legal ramifications...... etc,etc....

I've got a lot of how we could present this plotted out in my head (can you tell I wasn't concentrating too hard on the motorway driving home tonight?) but I don't have time now to write it out in a formal way. Let me know if you'd like more on Sunday - and I'm sure some of the others will have helpful ideas too.

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Bunglie · 24/06/2004 12:19

Thank you - I am going to try and wind down today, I thought I would try fishing to relax!
God - I hope it works, and thank you again for your help.

mummytosteven · 24/06/2004 12:22

Bunglie - because of the gagging orders the general public doesn't have a clue what is happening - its only because of mumsnet that I found out the sort of powers the family court have (and I was a solicitor before DS was born!!)No experience of family law or injunctions whatsoever, I am afraid . The media coverage foccuses so much on the criminal convictions being overturned, that the fact that people can be cleared by a criminal court, but then have their kids taken away by the family.
courts tends to be somewhat overlooked.

Just been checking the Solicitors Guide to Professional Conduct online - they should have asked your consent before destroying the file, and you do have grounds to complain of adequate professional service

"11. Would the client have grounds for making a complaint if I lost a file, or destroyed it without the client?s consent?

"The Standards and Guidance Committee?s view was that the storing of deeds and other legal documents for clients is a professional service. The loss or destruction of such documents could, therefore, give rise to an investigation by the Office for the Supervision of Solicitors on the basis of inadequate professional services."

The usual rule of thumb is to destroy files after 6 years - but they should have got your consent first. I don't know what the usual rule of thumb is for family cases - whether they should have waited till the kids turned eighteen.

Even if all your papers have been destroyed, it should be possible for the solicitor/barrister that handled your case to do a witness statement explaining that the file has been destroyed, saying what her recollection of the case was/basis of the family court removing your children. Given the circumstances, I would imagine your case was quite memorable to the solicitors IYSWIM.

If you had legal aid for the family court proceedings, the legal services commission may have some relevant papers in their archives - though again these are likely to have been destroyed. Any barrister instructed is likely to have sent his papers back to the solicitors once the case finished so I suspect he is unlikely to have anything.

Hope this long rambling post helps!

Bunglie · 24/06/2004 12:36

It does help, I checked the barristrs and the QC's but it seems that I am the only person with the reports. I just don't understand, it seems like a big conspiricy. I am going fishing to uncoil, back later.

mummytosteven · 24/06/2004 12:39

Have a good fish! Do you catch and take home to cook, or catch and throw back?

Bunglie · 24/06/2004 14:05

Ahhhhhhh! Can't go fishing yet, have to wait for phonecall and medication from pharmacist. I want to relax, so thought I would be sad and have a look at the bigbrother thread!
Oh worse still a friend, who I met on this site emailed me a tigger suite, thinking it would do as a babygro, not sure about the tail though.
What do you think, Here it is At least it made me laugh but I still want a babygro!

Janh · 24/06/2004 19:23

I just happened to listen to Weekend Woman's Hour and there was an interview with Steve Clark and John Batt, who has written a book about Sally's ordeal. Listen again here - there are some very pointed comments about how nothing has changed.

Bunglie · 24/06/2004 22:11

Thanks Janh, I won't listen to it now as I needed a day away, if you know what I mean. I never did go fishing,lots of reasons, phonecalls, chemist, sorting our student problems all sorts have kept me occupied today and so have kept me from getting too down. Guess what, I even did my washing, only 1 weeks worth but where I had been poorly and sweated etc I had EIGHT nighties!
I am going to be selfish and try and take a day for myself tomorrow and GO FISHING - what's the point of having a 'smoker' when you have no mackerel to smoke?
I hope then to have recharged my brain cells and got a bit of perspective back on things and will be ready to take on 'the system' shall we say on Moday!
I would also like to thank you for the support that you have shown on the 'southall guilty' thread. I think it was really nicewhat you said, all of you but speshly you jimjams, it was nice of you to think ofmy feelings .
I only wish I could explain to you how much your support has helped andmeant tme, I just donot have the words, I wish I could give you all a hug.
Sorry I am not a footie fan but I NOW understand why they laughed when I said 'vavoom,vavoom'. I saw the advert for the first time last night so I understand now!!!
It is hard to believe that it is nearly a week ago that I saw them. Why does time gofaster as you get older, why are triangle sandwiches nicer than square ones and why do men use the last piece of loo paper and not replace the roll?
Perhaps these things that have nagged at me over the years need answering before I can deal with 'why are the authorities etc so horrible?'
Love to all, from a bunglie feeling slightly better

GillW · 26/06/2004 12:54

Bunglie - please believe that there are many people still raising the issue of the non-independent so-called "reviews". See here from yesterday's Sunday Times.

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Bunglie · 26/06/2004 14:28

Thankyou I am feeling renewed with vigor!!!!
I am thinking of becoming a Zeberdee? Is there one, a coiled spring, one minute up, the next down etc etc.
I am going to get hold of the soilicitors construcing my fle today, and I am in no mood for a 'voice mail' box again........oooh I'm starting to worry myself!
Good news, I have a frezer full of smoked mackerel!!! I needed a calm weekiend!!!

GillW · 26/06/2004 14:34

Did anyone see the Channel 4 "30 minutes" programme on Saturday? I missed it... Grrr!

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