MSBP: Lost Mothers 2nd thread

[GillW]

New thread beacuse Bunglie needs the existing ones to be temporarily archived (and the last one was getting so-o-o-o-o long...)

Absolutely. We want a word for word description of the day.

Well, They arrived half an hour late, how inconsiderate can you get! I was wheeling on eggshells!
The af turned up in shorts, not a pretty site, practical though. Ds came in Jeans, (that needed a good wash) and dd came in smart trrousers and a very pretty top. I asked her if she ever wore a skirt, she said she had worn one on Saturday and it was quite a scary experience. I do not see why as she is about 5ft10", slim and a natural blonde, she is stunning. (yes I am jealous). She has finished her As levels but is not sure she has done that well, she said that about her GCSE's but she got 6 or 7 A's and 3B's. So I am not certain whether to believe her. She is also a prefect. My ds is working hard to earn some money to go travelling, and seems to like his job and boss, who telephoned 3-4 times during the afternoon!
What you really want to know is How did I get on with them?
Well, for the first time in 15 years I was left on my own with my dd. Because we went out for a meal, the af could not walk very fast, so dd and I (me on buggy) went ahead a bit and he could not catch up so we had a chance for a really good natter. Girls stuff. I think I must have a problem, because you guessed it, we ended up having a discussion over knickers v thongs. You will be pleased to know that she is a knicker person and stated shecant cope with something going up her .....need I say more. The problem came during the meal. by now the af had caught up, and my ds was VERY happy with his pint of beer, but my dd and I ended up discussing thong pantyliners, that were sold in a shop we had passed. She said she would open the box to see what they were like as I said they were a contradiction in terms, the af was in absolute disbelief at this conversation!
It was wonderful. I was in control, and I had both of my children. For the first time ever I could speak to them privately and my ds ia adament that my dd should not receive 'that' letter, but more about that in another posting.
The sun shone all day, we spent more than the usual 2 hours together and we did not have the 'am' there to contend with. The children were like different people. The whole atmosphere was different and it was truelly enjoyable. I wish I could expresss the happiness I felt. I did feel that my ds was slightly reserved to start with but he definitly warmed up with a beer. Both of them kissed me goodbye and gave me a hug. Never before has that happened. The af even referred to me on 2 occassions as their mother. Oh and I told them Twinkies Joke about 'The frog who wanted a loan' They hooted, and said it was chronic, awful, and any other adjective that they could think of. Thanks Twinkie, it did lighten the atmosphere.
O.K. There's the taster of what the day was like I shall tell you more but I know that you don't like loooooong postings.
Oh I love you all, I would never of had Sunday had I not sent that text to my ds, and that was because of you. I hope that my happiness is not burst just yet, but I do think that there is real hope now. I am just worried about the 'am' and my stepmonster.
Do you think I should text my ds today????

I am sitting in my office with tears of joy for you. Luckily boss is at the bank. Yes do text him.
Wish I could have seen af's face during the pantyliner conversation.

More.... More.... (And if this doesn't justify a long posting what does?)

It is SUCH a good sign that your daughter feels comfortable and confident enough with you that she can discuss such personal things. Actually I think the af turning up in shorts is a pretty good sign too that he wasn't regarding the occasion a formal obligation, but one which he could be reasonably relaxed about.

You must find out when your dd's exam results are due and make sure you get to know how she got on. Surely even the am couldn't object to a congratulations card if she does well?

And yes - send that txt.

Such a brilliant post, we are all so pleased for you. We want more...

Send that txt - they want you in their lives, you are their mum.

I'm sure someone will start a thread...don't have time as i'm still at work, but Southall has been "found guilty" or whatever the medical equivalent is by the medical review board.

That is really great news Sofia.

I will post the next part of my ds and dd's visit shortly, but I am having a rest period every now and then as I am still a bit delicate.
A really good thing dd said was how much she would like to live where I live. little does she know that dd and ds are the beneficiaries of my will.
But there is more and I promise when I can sit still I shall tell you, but it is all really positive. We managed to have a good conversation, ds,dd and myself. AF was still thinking about the thong liners I think!
I hope it gives my ds the courage to come on his own next time.
Am going to send text later as he has his phone off at work.

YES! Sky News

He

But isn't this what he and Meadow were encouraged to do - only from reading someone else's notes about a person rather than seeing them on TV - all along???? What is the difference really?

bunglie, I haven't posted much on your threads recently but I am popping up to say I am just so pleased Prof Southall is being discredited at last. And also very happy you had a family sunday. You children sound great

spelling! 'your' children sound great!

Okey, dokey, Thank you by the way for your input on the 'Southall Guilty' thread I started. Can ayone give me a link to the GMC on it ????

Part 2....My wonderful ds and dd.
After they had arrived I offered them a drink. I thought that my dd was ill for a minute as she turned down a cup of tea. I t6hen realised being in a stuffy car for a couple of hours could make you a bit hot, but both ds and dd had cold cans of coke. af- could not decide I went through all the options again, and he eventually said, "no not fizzy, not hot either" so I said "OK I will get you an Orange juice, that is unless you prefer squash?". I as in control, and he said, "Juice would be lovely". My d and ds I found our were not allowed 'coke' or fizzy drinks at home, no wonder ds moved out when he was 18! dd has a tea fixation, the two of them must have been craveing caffeine fixes. dd did say there was no point drinking tea if it was decaffinated!
I have told you about walking down the the road and my discussion with my dd, ooh af was shocked at lunch. It came to lunch and we sat outside with the sea breeze just gently keeping us cool it was wonderful. My ds looked at the menu, and hmmed and ahed. dd looked and said "Ooh my favourite" a baked potato filled with prawns, and I mean filled, not the odd ten floating aroud. I said I would join her and have a baked potato but could see that ds was in a bit of a dilema, he is a growing boy! so I suggested that he got something from the carvery. Todays special being Roast beef and yourkshire pud plus anything else you could get on your plate. I offered ds a choice of wine or beer, or pehaps something else, he said "beer would be great". af then said could I have a half of Murpheys in a lovely timid voice, I said of course, no problem. and dd said I will have lemonade, I commented "only another 6 months to go" and she leant forward and whispered in y ear , we were opposite each other, "If you thinks that stops me think again!" Any link to AA GillW? Only joking, I don't think it is a problem, and I think she would be abnormal if she did not try it, but it is obvious this was for my ears only not the af. And I know we would not have been sitting together how we were if the 'am' had come. so It was wonderful.
After our meal that is when dd made the comment that she wanted to live where I lived and she also said that she would like to come down and stay. I said "don't you thin that might cause conflict at home, not that I would not love to have you anytime". She went silent and "yes, they wouldn't like it but I would be 18, what can they do?" I only said that when and if she wants to come she will always be welcome, and that's when I told her I had always loved her and ds, I was sorry how things had worked out for them and anything I could do to make it better I would. I am worried that if she gets, 'That' letter she will change her mind. I asked her if she knew why she had been adopted and she said "no, not the truth, granny has said somethings I don't understand, (my stepmonster)and I think when I was little 9name of social who wrote letter0 told us a story but I can't remember it, but I would like to know and thought I would find out after my birthday". So wow! is all I can say, I must stop that letter. She is obviously very astute not to believe my stepmonster but she does not know what to believe. I will be honest and say that it became obvious after she was adopted that they wanted a girl and this boy came along as part of the package. my ds has had it very difficult and is a bit more wary of me, but I have time, and dd is just beautiful. I am stunned by her intuition but I have NEVER been able to talk to her alone before. we beet ds and af back by 5 minutes, but did have the kettle on for them.
The next installment, if you are not bored will be about tea and presents. Do you want to know about the 2 most beautiful children in the world from a very proud and biased mother?

Hmmm, just had a second look, call it creative writing. I did not check that all the letters had come out from this cordless keyboard, and that mixed with my wonderful ability to spell means that you neet to read it carefully, sorry!

Ohhh dear it is bad, sorry, I will try and remember to preview before posting!

Bunglie - something has just occured to me with regard to stopping this letter being given to your dd. It is an irerversable action, due to happen at a set date, and might be shown to be inappropriate, and arguably irreversably damaging, if in the light of the review your case is shown to be one where justice hasn't been done. Given those facts, there is a good chance that you would be able to get an injunction preventing the letter from being given to your dd. It's the same law which allows people to stop newspapers publishing things about them if they know in adance that it's going to happen. If you did apply for an injunction it might mean that your ds would be asked to testify about the contents of the letter he received, and the effect it had upon him (but the effect it had would be as important as the contents of the letter, even if it could no longer be found). The level of proof required to obtain an injunction - at least until the issue is resolved - isn't the same as in a court case (it's preventing/delaying something from happening, not proving something did), and with the current review of cases, and your evidence of a medical diagnosis contradicting the original verdict at a time you would probably have enough. It's certainly an avenue worth exploring - but you'd need to get more advice from solicitor (at least from one of our resident Legal Eagles (Kaz are you still with us?) about it.

Thanks GillW, I will have to read again to make sure I fully understand as it is a bit heavey for me. I shall get back to you, many thanks.
Bunglie

Sorry Bunglie - too early in the morning to write lucidly.

What I was trying to say was that maybe we've all been getting a bit too focussed on the case reviews, etc and ignoring a possible simpler route to getting what you've said you really want - i.e. to stop your dd from getting that letter. Obviously if the reviews come to the conclusion that the original decision was wrong there are all kinds of implications in terms of compensation claims, etc, so it's not so surprising, especially as the reviews aren't independent, if they are producing "nothing wrong" outcomes. And even if they did find that there was cause for doubt, I think in your case they would probably conclude that as the children have been apart from you for so long it wouldn't be in their best interests to return them - even if the legal process of overturning adoptions wasn't such a minefield.

So, much as I want to see you vindicated, the clock is ticking towards the deadline of your dd's 18th birthday and we may have to accept that getting a full resolution by then might not happen.

To achieve the outcome you want (to get the letter stopped in it's tracks before your dd's 18th birthday) the injunction route might just swing the odds in your favour.

There is, if nothing else, enough cause for doubt, enough potential damage to be caused, and little if any benefit to be gained from handing over the letter written so long ago - especially in the light of subsequent developments (Meadows, and your diagnosis) since it was written - for the chances of you getting an injunction preventing it being given to her to be quite good. Much higher, in all probability, than of getting a positive verdict from the social services review.

more more please. I am hanging on every word (instead of doing the piles of work I have on my desk). I think GillW's suggestion is great. I also think at this point that the reality is that you have already established the groundwork for a good enough relationship with your children that it doesn't really matter what is in the letter and whether or not your dd gets it. She sounds mature and smart enough to know the truth when she hears it. You should give your ds the "envelope" in the meantime and have one ready for your dd for when she turns 18.
By the way, is she applying to universities? Are there any good ones near you? Maybe you could let her (or ds) know that she would be welcome to take a gap year at your house. It sounds to me like she would give her right arm to do that. My heart bleeds for your poor children who desperately need your hugs and kisses.

Also, reading between the lines, it sounds to me like your dd is not sure who to trust and is feeling you out to find out whether if she bolts from the ap's house when she turns 18, she will be welcome at your house and whether you will fight for her right to stay there, rather than sending her back. (Don't forget that in her eyes they took her away from you once before and she may be afraid of that happening again). Clearly ds left the second he could, but she may not be as strong as him and also she sounds like she is heading towards university and will therefore need financial help from a parent that your ds didn't need because he was able to start working and earning money right away. I suggest that you should make it clear to her (and ds as he is more accessible) as soon as possible and in as strong a language as possible, that you are there 100% for her and would be happy to take her in the day she turned 18 and support her while she was at university and for as long as she needed it.
Anybody else? Do you think I've got this totally wrong.

GillW could I just say how wonderful it is to read your clear (and very unlawerly-like) suggestions to Bunglie. I hope that if I ever need help on the legal end of things I've got you on my side.

Bunglie, what you said to DD brought tears to my eyes, and I think that Sofia is right, she will be down to you like a shot when she can.

It is so heartbreaking to think of the wonderful loving upbringing they would have had with you if not for that man.

Tea and presents now please!

Sofia - anything I write which sounds "unlawyerly" is probably becasue I'm not a lawyer!

I think the point about universities is a very valid one too - Bunglie it's certainly worth planting the idea that if she happened to choose a university in your area (I wonder if she might have been hinting at that when she said she'd like to live there) you'd be around to help in whatever way you could.

I also thinking that if your dd has an email address, and you could find out what it is, you could use it to start communicating privately with her. It would be a much less obvious, and more private, way than telephone/mail while she's living with the ap's, and judging by Sunday she might feel less inhibited if she could "talk" to you unobserved. Perhaps your ds would know it?

sorry gillw, don't know why i head it in my head that you were. I would be terribly insulted if someone called me a lawyer

Tea and presents coming shortly......
GillW I have thought about an injunction and I think you are spot on. I shall mention it and see what /if it is possible. I had never thought of it. But , thank you for that.
Sofia, Thank you also. I must stop that letter. I know I might have started a relationship with my dd, but I thought I was making a small start with my ds, The letter really did blow his mind and what disturbed me is until Sunday, he thought that the letter was contemporary, ie, had been written on his Birthday, NOT 15 years ago. I told him that on Sunday and he was VERY surprised. I think he does not want me to see it 'hence he could not find it' because he thinks I will get upset. But it is obvious that it is a raw point with him and when I asked him if he thought that his sister should get one (which will be worse, as it was her I was accused of trying to kill!), he was adamant and said "NO", and he knows his sister better than anyone. Hence I must stop it.
Yes she is thinking of university, I asked her but forms do not need filling in until after Christmas (UCAS) and she has changed her mind (again) as to what she wants to study. I will reaffirm that I will help and support her when I can.
Thank you, got a bit of work to do, (not much hee hee!) then Tea and pressies.
Oh I thought I would go to the new mumsnet shop!!! I heard they sell thongs and I want KNICKERS!

Quckly, I have just read your post GillW. Yes dd does have an email address, however the whole family have a site at 'Demon, so their address are af@(surname).Demon,co.uk (or something like that, with dd's being, dd@(surname.demon.co.uk etc. Now last time I saw dd she complained about the am and af reading her emails. aparently she had been emailing her boyfriend ('a wet dish cloth'-now dumped), and so there seems to be someway that they can read her emails, so I did not sugest it, I would have otherwise and I did not want to 'push' her too hard as afterall this was our FIRST proper talk!
More later, back to work, or was it shopping.....

Bunglie, I agree you should try to stop the letter. It was more that I am worried about you and do not want you to worry so much about the consequences if the "evil forces" somehow manage to get it to her anyway. I think that you have said enough to your ds and gained enough of her trust that it will not have the same devastating effect on her that it had on your ds. I am totally and completely optimistic about the outcome of all of this. And so excited. It's just like an episode of Touched by an Angel...it has a beautiful happy ending. Now if we could only organize the same incomes for ourselves that the actors get!!!