Another terrorist attack

[Kreeshsheesh]

Priest has been murdered. Apparently IS had threatened to target churches in France.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

fourmummy
My 'human impulse' was to try and make sure that the right distinction was understood that these fanatics are not Muslims and are terrorist fanatics as I have said before.
My 'human instinct' was to make sure my thoughts were notes on a forum shared by people who are parents first and foremost.
What scares me most is that my DC is growing up in a world where a lot is happening and a lot is being misunderstood; I have to try and find a way to make sure my DC grows up knowing that there are enough people out there willing to look at the bigger picture before reacting and tarring everyone with the same brush.
I'm not trying to shut down any debate at all. I am offended by some of the wording and mentality of some posters here and they have every right to say what they think and I do too; yet when I do and kindly request so, it's seen as an attempt to shut down debate?
Why should I produce arguments that will stand up? They will obviously never be enough for those that have made up their minds for those that agree with you.
I mentioned the Nazis as an EXAMPLE of how things could be taken out of context and it seems it's struck a negative chord for those who thought I said Nazis were Christian and represent Christianity. That's not what I said. It's being taken out of context (surprise surprise).
Muslims are being condemned for not speaking out against attacks yet most don't actually want to be heard; the media are the ones in control of what you see and hear.
I resent this connotation that I even said anything remotely similar to the "nothing to do with Islam" argument, if you'll read again I actually DIDN'T say that; it's the fact that Daesh is a warped interpretation of the religion that some don't seem to understand.
By the way, I'm NOT a Muslim.

Gini99: "Hackmum, completely off topic but is this true? I didn't think Elizabeth burnt Catholics but that it was her half-sister Mary that burnt protestants."

That's a good question! You're right, of course, Mary did burn Protestants. I was aware that Elizabeth executed Catholics and had assumed that this was also by burning at the stake, but a very quick google suggests I'm wrong - it may just have been the standard hanging, or hanging, drawing and quartering in some cases.

Further articles on extremists' involvement with mosques:

www.rt.com/news/184600-isis-denmark-support-mosque/
www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-18/isis-support-growing-in-indonesia-schools-prisons-mosques/7181032
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/extremist-toured-uk-mosques-to-preach-jihad-sxr36qh8q

I suspect that there is fear in the Muslim communities - to speak out in public.

Is that true?

'I'm very very surprised that there hasn't been some sort of 'Muslims against extremism ' network set up

There is one , in a way. Voices like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Rizvi, several posters on Mn (e.g., MistressMia) and others, but no-one is listening to what they are saying. The message that I've got from all these posters is that you don't have to stop being a Muslim even if you stop following Islam. You can be a proud, noble and decent Muslim but you can also simultaneously reject the nastiness in Islam. In other words, you can 'cherry pick' what you choose to believe - and that is the key thing. They are offering a flexibility and therefore, change to Islam - and that's fine and just as it should be. It can then be changed ands shaped into a great force. These people must be heard.

it seems it's struck a negative chord for those who thought I said Nazis were Christian and represent Christianity.

^^ negative in that its not an apt comparison at all.

These people must be heard

Yes but to be heard they also need to be protected.

Puzzled interesting,

Its murky isnt it, imagine if the tiny westbourogh church, thought one day
" only 43 of us, cant do much damage, lets start a recruitment program, all over states, and world" and our churches hosted them, some people started to blow up abortion clinics here in their name, some slaughtered gay people, muslims etc, there would open out rage.

97% of IS victims are Muslim. They recently detonated a massive bomb in Medina, the second holiest city in Islam, killing some worshippers there.

So from this clear evidence, you can surmise that IS pose the greatest threat to other Muslims. So the idea that as a Muslim, I need to make public apologies on behalf of my faith because an organisation which carries out daily slaughter of Muslims is bizzare.

Fair enough I pity.

I resent this connotation that I even said anything remotely similar to the "nothing to do with Islam" argument, if you'll read again I actually DIDN'T say that; it's the fact that Daesh is a warped interpretation of the religion that some don't seem to understand.

Was it a "warped interpretation of the religion" that called for the murder of Salman Rushdie? Because if so, it was a remarkably popular one which was able to mobilise an awful lot of Muslims onto British streets burning him in effigy and calling for his death. I guess that was all just a "warped interpretation" as well, was it?

One would imagine these attacks will hand the election to the NF 😳

People on the news furious with Holland saying he can't keep France safe

I find the concept of islamophobia interesting. Because it seems to me to be used to shut down debate. How can 'dislike of a religion' be an offence?
There is a massive difference between being anti Muslim and disliking Islam. If you discriminate against Muslims/Christians/Jews because of their beliefs, it's rightly illegal. We respect the person and respect their right to believe whatever they wish. My friends are atheist, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu. All believe different things.
Criticising islam as a religious ideology is neither wrong nor illegal. ALL religions need to be open to scrutiny and criticism, just like we can criticise government policy, or any other propaganda. Causing offence is not, and should not be a crime. I am allowed to say that an aspect of any religion is distasteful.
Saying Isis aren't Muslim is incorrect. Fundamental Christian sects have beliefs that would make your average Anglican uneasy - submission to men, 'quiverful' sects, etc etc - it's all justified in the bible if you pick your text carefully. Isis are following an extreme literalist interpretation of Islam, just as fundamental Christians do with the bible. They're still Christians .

The argument that they're not Muslims is just wrong. They are. What we should be asking is 'why is this militant strain of salafist/wahabist belief spreading faster than more tolerant strains?' (Gulf funding of wahabist mosques.) What aspects of this religion are contributing to this? (No overarching leader, no process of general textual critique, literalism etc)

They are not Muslims and are using Islam as a guise. I'm telling you it's offensive to me. But carry on using it to tar my religion and other Muslims. Thanks a lot

It is tarring your religion. Does that make you angry? It should. I'd be fuming. But... We need to accept that. And we need to counter it with increased social cohesion, open critique of religious texts and cracking down on Saudi money and the poisonous ideology they spread. Because if we don't, there is going to be civil unrest. And the people who will suffer will be law abiding, moderate Muslims like my friends, colleagues and neighbours, and you.
This is exactly what Isis want - division along religious lines. We must counter that by appealing to our common humanity not by sticking our fingers in our ears and saying it's not happening. Part of that process is talking about religion, about positive aspects and negative aspects.

So the idea that as a Muslim, I need to make public apologies on behalf of my faith because an organisation which carries out daily slaughter of Muslims is bizzare

If anyone has mentioned apologies then yes, that would be true - but they didn't, did they? What was mentioned was protests against this barbarity (which, as you quite rightly said, affects muslims in much greater numbers)

The Rushdie affair was a shocking eye opener for me. His books were burned on the street near where I grew up, along with effigies of the man himself.
No one was arrested for disturbing the public peace, threats to kill or hate crimes.

Any religion that repays criticism with violence is in the wrong.

Haven't read the last few posts (will do so later) but just wanted to add to my own that Islam should enable individuals to be as observant as they want to be, on a sliding scale, ranging from 'not at all' to completely, for example:

“I would much prefer the description ‘secular agnostic utilitarian rationalist reductionist humanist with cultural Muslim influences’, but that won’t fit on my business card.”(Saif Rahman)

The sliding scale of identity and religiosity is a flexible one, which will facilitate the rejection of certain aspects but the bolstering up of others. We need to get to that point.

, I need to make public apologies on behalf of my faith because an organisation which carries out daily slaughter of Muslims is bizzare.

^ No of course not!!!
But I wonder if it would help to the people within the faith who are tempted by the more radical side? I wonder if the moderate side would help to counter the vocal violent side?

seeing as there is no one leader in the faith who can come out to condemn the attacks once and for all, it seems there is someone on the other preaching hate. Interpretation?

The imams, mosques and the religion of Islam have nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry but I disagree. They might not be directly involved in any terrorist attacks but as influential leaders of the community they do have a part to play in the messages they send. A message of total revulsion and disgust at these acts needs to be shouted louder and louder by all those these people ISIS 'believe' they represent - politicians in the Middle East, community leaders, Imans and yes ordinary Muslims because like it or not these guys believe they represent you.