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Another terrorist attack

342 replies

Kreeshsheesh · 26/07/2016 10:50

Priest has been murdered. Apparently IS had threatened to target churches in France.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

OP posts:
fourmummy · 28/07/2016 14:37

I was hoping someone in the know, in the loop would give some info....Zilch

I'm not 'in the know' as such but I'll have a go at explaining this. The key is inequality. If you institutionalise inequality so that all the society's systems/institutions are based on it (legal system, domestic life, personal relationships, healthcare system, education), then it becomes much easier to dehumanise people. Then, a murder (or rape, or firing from a job) of an unequal is not really murder but something else entirely. 'Murder' is reserved for those who are on an equal footing to you, the fully human ones worth saving and protecting. We've seen this happen again and again in many societies (e.g., the American civil rights movement was borne out of these issues). This is why our equality laws, which apply to everyone whether they are male or female, black or white, adult or child, are so unique, special and must be protected at all costs. We can see this inequality in action in this very short article:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/26/muslim-doctor-christian-patient-pakistan?CMP=share_btn_tw

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 28/07/2016 14:44

I don't know of any priest, vicar or rabbi that has issued anything similar to a fatwa against a writer or similar person that has offended their religion.

And if one did, it would not be hard to find mass condemnation of it.

The Rushdie Fatwa? Muslims saying it's wrong? You'll have a hard job finding them.

blameitonme · 28/07/2016 14:52

Four mummy..but some are more equal than others. That 'equality' gets more and more narrow till what..only the radical Islamists remain?

fourmummy · 28/07/2016 14:58

Blame Precisely. All societies struggle with equality of their citizens. That is the one issue at the heart of everything. We in Western societies have come a long way. Other societies haven't (note, for example, how Saudi Arabia refuses to sign up to various equal/human rights conventions). As far as I can see, you can be a pious and observant [religious person] but also turn a blind eye to murder of another because it's not really murder, because they were not fully human, because they deserved it, because that's what God says.... [insert dehumanising element here].

blameitonme · 28/07/2016 15:05

Which brings it back to the fact that the direction originates from religious - Islamic - tracts, albeit that they are being subverted. And sections of society - extremist religious leaders - are condoning that subversion.

Limer · 28/07/2016 15:14

I was thinking about this earlier. The only vaguely similar non-Islamic scenario I can recall was the very minor fuss over the Monty Python Life of Brian film. I remember Malcolm Muggeridge and some bishops of the day, debating whether the film was blasphemous with John Cleese and Michael Palin (I think). The Pythons' defence, of course, was that Brian wasn’t supposed to be Jesus, he wasn’t the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy Grin

But some local councils refused to show the film, and some churchgoers boycotted it. IIRC the church didn’t order its congregation what to do, that was left as a personal decision for the individual. Very different to a fatwa.

And there was a similar minor outcry over The Last Temptation of Christ film?

What god can't stand up to a bit of mockery FFS?

fourmummy · 28/07/2016 15:16

So...ban religion? We can't ban people's thoughts but we can certainly ban outward expressions of it. Modily texts? Change laws? I honestly believe that the posters on MN have had more ideas than anyone out there in a position of power, from whom emanates a total silence. We pay these people. Shameful.

fourmummy · 28/07/2016 15:19

But some local councils refused to show the film, and some churchgoers boycotted it That was in Father Ted as well (that programme is my Bible). I'll go and check what they did.

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 28/07/2016 15:26

But some local councils refused to show the film, and some churchgoers boycotted it.

But, as you point out, John Cleese didn't need to spend the next 25 years under police protection.

I've heard it said that one of the upsides of the Rushdie affair was that wider society started listening to British Muslims. Yes. We heard people shouting "we want to murder a novelist" and took away the impression - which is probably Islamophobic or something - that they wanted to murder a novelist. We're now told they didn't really mean it but were exaggerating for effect, that it's the discourse of the culture that tends to hyperbole, that "kill" has an unstated footnote "but only in an ideal Muslim state" (how reassuring), etc, etc, etc. I think it's easier to take things at their face value, and when a large group of people are marching in support of killing British citizens, what they mean is that they want to kill British citizens.

I've never heard a British Muslim say that the fatwa was unequivocally wrong, anyway, and I doubt we'll hear that said on this thread.

blameitonme · 28/07/2016 15:48

And France are secular, no religion in schools - but they get hammered.

Easy to say it is displacement activity, hark back to its colonial past - but it is extreme - not a protest, and it is not violence against the state - it is being done in the name Allah.

If my religion was being besmirched thus I would be outraged, I would want to stand up and say that Did not stand alongside it. But I wouldn't see that as having to APOLOGISE for MY religion because my point would be that what was being done was not in the name of religion as I knew it. But where are these protests?

Just5minswithDacre · 28/07/2016 15:54

I can't quite catch the thread of what ACTION you are suggesting or hoping for.

blameitonme · 28/07/2016 16:14

To be able to discuss the problem and work together to eradicate it. For all people, of all faiths and none, to stand together. To speak with the same voice. To give them no quarter. To shun them wherever they exist in society.

Limer · 28/07/2016 16:31

fourmummy "That was in Father Ted as well" - I'd forgotten, but yes, it was the "Down with this sort of thing" "Careful now" placards - that only served to hugely popularise the film and get record attendances. Which is what I think happened with the Last Temptation of Christ.

blameitonme Hear, hear.

fourmummy · 28/07/2016 16:49

"Down with this sort of thing" "Careful now" placards - that only served to hugely popularise the film and get record attendances - because no-one actually gave a toss what the church said. They were more interested in the film. Islam is very clearly not at this stage yet, so how do we get it there?

Dacre - since we've had exactly nothing regarding action from our representatives, looks like we'll need to work it out for ourselves. I don't know what we can do but we can't exactly continue as we are.

Blame - exactly right (the 'how dare you besmirch what is previous to me' bit).

FarAwayHills · 28/07/2016 17:41

Blame Well said, exactly what needs to happen. Although the first step would be for that faith to acknowledge that there is a problem.

fourmummy · 28/07/2016 17:51

Blame - exactly right (the 'how dare you besmirch what is precious to me' bit).

Inkanta · 28/07/2016 17:53

'To be able to discuss the problem and work together to eradicate it. For all people, of all faiths and none, to stand together. To speak with the same voice. To give them no quarter. To shun them wherever they exist in society.'

Blame - nicely said. Agree.

Just5minswithDacre · 28/07/2016 18:38

To be able to discuss the problem and work together to eradicate it. For all people, of all faiths and none, to stand together. To speak with the same voice. To give them no quarter. To shun them wherever they exist in society.

Do what do you think the problem is?

To me, the problem is that there is a growing collection of violent self-radicalised extremists across the west, inspired and assisted by a death cult militia who are holding territory in the Middle East.

Just5minswithDacre · 28/07/2016 18:39

So what do you think...^

allthemadmen · 28/07/2016 18:51

Just without a doubt thats part of the issue, but its far more complicated than that.

Some really interesting info across threads though if you wanted to catch up?

Just5minswithDacre · 28/07/2016 19:21

Some really interesting info across threads though if you wanted to catch up?

That's not a lot to go on Smile

LightstepPeter0 · 28/07/2016 19:46

No person of the Muslim faith will denounce punishment to be delivered to: apostates, unfaithful wives, jokes and cartoons lampooning the prophet, etc. You are asking too much. The closest I have heard a few say (skirting around the issue) is: no one is stoned, maimed or beheaded in England. It would be very serious for a Muslim person to say they think that some punishments as laid down in the Koran are excessive. Won’t happen.

allthemadmen · 28/07/2016 19:53

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/open-mosque-taj-hargey-south-africa-934

This one has Lightstep, he also allows apostates come come and pray when they want as well as men and women praying together, gay people etc.

He has received death threats and no support from the Muslim council of Britain.

Just There is loads of info on this - here on MN, in papers, everywhere. I know its a big subject though, and can be over whelming. Smile

allthemadmen · 28/07/2016 19:58

Dr Taj Hargey says he became radicalised after 9/11.

"I went to mosque in Oxford that week, after the largest political event of the age concerning Muslims, and did anyone mention it? No. Not at all," he says. "I mean, it wasn't entirely clear to what extent this concerned Islam just then, but where was the basic human compassion? I thought, 'Something's wrong here.'"

Hargey is now a full-blown radical, and he's waging his own private jihad, turning Muslim teaching away from the stodgy conservatism of most clerics.

Not only is he a radical, Hargey's also a hardcore fundamentalist, in that he rejects the Hadith – the book of the so-called "sayings of the Prophet" (compiled 200 years after the Prophet died) and the text used to form the outline of Sharia law. Unsurprisingly, Hargey also rejects Sharia itself.

Fundamentally, he points out, Islam is about the Qur'an, and it is from the Qur'an that he will preach, ignoring all the other footnotes beloved of modern clerics. All of that stuff, he says, has no pertinence to the Qur'an: it's a book that rejects violence; doesn't mention the burqa; embraces a role for women; and doesn't explicitly ban images of Muhammad or encourage Muslims to murder satirical cartoonists.

To this end, Hargey took part of his salary as an Oxford don and started his own mosque in South Africa late last year. The place of worship, he says – unlike most around the world – is both gay-friendly and woman-friendly. Which is exactly why he's not getting on so well within the local community of sects, Imams and governing councils.

His "Open Mosque" in Cape Town has been firebombed three times since it commenced operations in September. "They also tried to drive a 4x4 through the doors... but for me, right now, the project is about holding on," he tells me. "I've always said that if we can make it to our first anniversary, then we will have made it. And they know it! That's why they're piling on the pressure."

By unhappy coincidence, I meet Hargey the Friday after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Unlike his own experiences of 9/11, today's congregation – seven women and 13 men – get both barrels of commentary. He preaches for the better part of an hour, blasting off broadsides from the MacBook he's tucked into his lectern, as thick with Qur'anic citations as his academic background suggests.

"Where does it say in the Qur'an that blasphemers must be killed? Nowhere. That is only in the Hadith," he thunders.

He's splenetic. The Prophet, he points out again and again, showed clemency to a host of people who insulted him or ridiculed him. He seems to be making a special point here, playing to the gallery slightly. In the front row, a Muslim reporter from the local papers has been dispatched to note down the sayings of this mad mullah of liberal tolerance.

Yet, as one devotee who'd shuffled from mosque-to-mosque around the Cape for the past few years tells me, elsewhere, most other Imams won't be making a similar pitch this Friday afternoon. "They're very conservative in what they teach," he sighs. "They want to have the power, so they give you lots of laws*

fakenamefornow · 28/07/2016 22:16

No person of the Muslim faith will denounce punishment to be delivered to: apostates, unfaithful wives, jokes and cartoons lampooning the prophet, etc

My Muslim friends would. The only Muslims I know drink, go to the pub, wear completely western clothes, no hair covered, have gay friends, some eat pork etc. I don't think any of them ever go to mosque, I don't even know if they believe in god. I think they would still describe themselves as Muslim though.

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