Another terrorist attack

[Kreeshsheesh]

Priest has been murdered. Apparently IS had threatened to target churches in France.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

I think you will find many people would say they are not real Muslims fake

But if they have an understanding of
the religion and are choosing not to following it but still beleive it's the right way then isn't it for them to decide if they are Muslim or not

I know many Muslims who are what you'd call non observant and more Western, but equally there are many in the community I live in who are becoming very much more conservative, especially in the following of Wahhabism. Many of the more western Muslims I know have reported being criticised by these more conservative people, told they are dressing too western and that they are not 'good' Muslims. Even extending to one of my sons friends, who is six being told by another child " I can make you a better Muslim". His mum was not impressed. So there is division within the religion. For the people who do stand up, who are not following the more traditional doctrine, there are many more who are, and it's growing. I see women who before never wore the face veil, doing so now. What is changing? Why are the more hardline teachings gaining ground? What can be done to promote more unity and mixing between all communities?

So still no answers from those in the know then? No insights or rational arguments.

fake I think they are as Muslim as I am Catholic, but I don't call myself Catholic because I don't believe it. It would be interesting to know whether your friends actually don't believe or whether they are just conveniently ignoring the teachings for now so they can enjoy themselves whilst they're young. If they broadly do believe, how do they square it, I'm really interested in that.

My niece has a friend who has a professional degree and great career but knows that soon she will be 'expected' to marry someone, probably from her home country. Her option is to be disowned and shunned by her family. She is currently looking into surgery to restore some semblance of a hymen, so that she bleeds on her wedding night, otherwise she would be beaten or killed by his family. I want to know if the 'moderates' think this is ok. Also I would like the earlier question about killing for blasphemy to be answered.

Sport - there are probably many answers to your questions but here's a biggie right here:

"...the pickle we’re in now dates back to the deal Franklin D Roosevelt did with the Saudis to gain access to Arab oil. The virulent faith of Wahhabism, a fundamentalist vision of Islam that was born in the 18th century in Saudi Arabia, was permitted to flourish by the West, and slowly spread its ever mutating tentacles into other Muslim territories. The Russians and, after 9/11, the British were duly caught up in this cynical powerplay, and here we all are, ushered to the brink of an abyss by a succession of clueless Western leaders who have infantilised world geopolitics..." ( from a Telegraph review of the documentary Bitter Lake)

It continues: www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-13/saudi-arabia-has-funded-20-hillarys-presidential-campaign-saudi-crown-prince-claims

We can only wonder at the deals that must have been cut with Merkel, Juncker and Sutherland, judging by the aftereffects.

I don't know on those points Charlie as I'm not Muslim. One of the main points of contention I can see is that choosing to no longer be part of the religion is seen as apostasy with all the attendant penalties. We don't have these penalties for leaving a religion in either Catholicism or CofE, we just make the choice to no longer believe and that's it. Our families rarely disown us. We are not pressured to marry anyone of our families choice. The status of our intimate parts are never enquired into.

I cannot answer the killing for blasphemy point either as I am again not Muslim. I am not religious so have no issues about blasphemy and would think killing for any existential being that may or may not exist quite silly anyway.

Well there have been reports of arms we have sold to Saudi now ending up in the hands of Isis, so there is a lot going on there. I think we should seriously consider our position on this. A foreign country should not be allowed to dictate places of worship and doctrine in this country.

"Follow the money" seems appropriate here.

Money makes the world go round doesn't it Bakewell? It has been also said it's the root of all evil. It seems in this case the latter may be appropriate. It seems we are prepared to abandon all principle for greed.

Our politicians are disgusting for engaging with these deals. It can't ever possibly work out well but I guess short-termism and lining own pockets are more important than the people they work for. I don't think we'd even have a problem if more and more of our fellow citizens reacted like this:

www.middleeasteye.net/news/muslims-twitter-explain-why-theyre-too-busy-answer-call-rise-535380720

Excellent! If more people told them how ridiculous they are it might work. They need to be made to look idiotic not glamourous.

It's great, isn't it? Btw, DM published this too (not sure about the Guardian):

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3377210/Muslims-respond-wait-Star-Wars-film-join-ISIS.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-isis-attacks-ban-foreign-financing-mosques-as-prime-minister-warns-of-more-terror-attacks-a7161561.html

The French government is considering banning the foreign financing of mosques as it reshapes its counter-extremism strategy following a fresh wave of terror attacks.

Looks like France is waking up to this aspect of it.

FOURmummy thanks for your response to my earlier questions. You lifted the debate higher than I was intending it to go.
My issue was a much simpler one, respected main stream Imam who teaches all over the country and has a huge following, "deplores" ISIS and yet, on the other hand makes a huge show of supporting a man ( a body guard ) who shot a politician ( the man he was guarding) 9 times over blasphemy issues.
How do ordinary Muslims reconcile this? How do they feel about it?

Love the tweets, we need MORE of them .
Sporting, I have also noticed the Full Veil creeping in round my way too.

Why? Where is it coming from. All countries need to be urgently looking at moques funded from elsewhere.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/men-in-iran-are-wearing-hijabs-in-solidarity-with-their-wives-a7160146.html

As an outsider, it makes sense to me to stop the foreign money controlling UK mosques. Muslims in Britain need the "space" to develop their own, unique expression of Islam that works for them and allows them to be in harmony with wider British society I believe this would naturally happen without the foreign money being used to spearhead cultural imperialism.

Christianity and Judaism are practised differently in different places while still holding to an essential core. Islam has been this way too, and imho should continue to be so.

I think you will find many people would say they are not real Muslims fake

"But if they have an understanding of
the religion and are choosing not to following it but still beleive it's the right way then isn't it for them to decide if they are Muslim or not"

As many muslim countries don't allow you to opt out then muslims can't decide who is not mudlim enough. If religions are happy to enforce their dogma on someone at birth where they have no choice then they can't just disown them when it suits them. I feel this way about all religions that are happy to take you when you have no choice and brainwash you from birth.

Madmen I think you raise a very important point. It looks like the only explanation you'll get for your very obviously irreconcilable situation is from Western academics, journalists, and others whose opinion is just that, and not based in actual lived experience.

I've just heard on the news that the Head of the Muslim Community in the village where one of the terrorists came from has refused to bury him as he and the Muslim Community there 'don't want to taint their religion', I wonder if statements and actions like this may have an impact on those thinking about following in these terrorists footsteps.