Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve Part II

[Pinkchampchoccies]

Just in case people want to continue discussing this.

X posted with Claig

Glad to see the Times actually writing an editorial about it, putting the blame firmly where it belongs (on the perpetrators). Sadly, the Guardian is still too busy victory shaming and the BBC being non - judgemental. I am mildly surprised there have not been more protests, marching or outrage in Germany. I did wonder if it was too late to organise something over here; if nothing else to pre - empt anyone getting the idea it could be acceptable in the UK.

'Although I don't know what the poster you cite specifically wrote'

She said she thought that posters on here who said they woukd take refugees into their homes were stupid and that she could foresee what might happen.

It makes not not. I will now give up!

'Claig anyone saying of NYE's events that 'I knew [months ago] that this would happen'

But she is not talking specifically about NYE. She is worried as are lots of other people and everyone is worried that this NYE may not be the only occurrence of this and now we have advice form an official in Austria that women should not go out alone. People are worried about the future.

I am mildly surprised there have not been more protests, marching or outrage in Germany

Could the reticence be mainly attributable to WW2 related cultural 'guilt'? It seems so extreme, but it is confusing.

Justanotherlulrker "The problem is that even with the Internet there is still a delay, someone further up thread mentioned about Sweden and that the only stuff they could find is by 'right wing' media so automatically discounted it, "

You're referring to my post and you are totally misrepresenting what I said. I actually went to the trouble of checking the actual statistics, and explaining that the apparent figures the right wing sites (which were mostly blog posts, not reputable news outlets - I have also said upthread that I think the Telegraph has had some of the best coverage of this) were in fact artefacts of the way Sweden records sexual assaults and rapes in a much more detailed and thorough manner than most other countries.

The reason I went to the trouble of doing this fact checking was because one poster in particular kept making the assertion (unsupported by any links to any sources) that Sweden had a massive problem with sex crimes committed by immigrants - that poster turns out to be one of those currently under investigation as a sock puppet.

Ah yes, maybe, claig. What a tangle.

It is about free expression and not silencing others. Hear, hear.

Reading the guardian (in general, not specifically today) makes me so angry.

Ok, sorry lurcio only remember skimming posts on they way home on the train and didn't read it properly, didn't realise it was down to figures, thought it was in relation to media not reporting etc.

I see it Ego

I think they have been cuaght by surprise. I have no doubt they have read this thread. I am utterly mystified as to their reporting of this. The Guardian I knew and loved all these years would have been the first to report this.

I'm halfway thru cooking a risotto and drinking wine, so going to bow out. Seriously disappointed and pissed off.

Thanks just. Yes, Sweden (a) is much less likely to no-crime rape reports, and (b) records each incident separately whereas a lot of countries will report repeated rapes by the same perpetrator on the same victim (say, marital rape over a protracted period) as a single crime. This inflates Sweden's rape figures (as does the fact that because they take it seriously, women are more likely to report crimes to the police).

The issue over numbers of immigrants committing crimes is somewhat murkier - some websites appear to conflate numbers of convictions of immigrants with numbers investigated by the police.

The other thing that's interesting is the "Sweden has a worse gender ratio than China" headlines. I think the source for this is a blog, but one which from a quick look did seem to be based on publically available stats from the Swedish government. The thing is the figure isn't for the Swedish population as a whole, but (if I'm remembering right) the 15 to 20 agegroup specifically, because Sweden has a small population, and a large number of the refugees they've taken have been "unaccompanied minors". Which isn't to say that this gender imbalance isn't worrying, just that the headlines are misleading.

I will reiterate, as I did in the previous post, that it's very difficult to get the accurate breakdown of figures from a reputable source because as we've seen with these events it's unclear that the serious press - broadsheets, BBC, etc. - are actually doing the investigative journalism they should be, for fear of being seen as inflammatory. I would like to see someone do a decent job of this. The stats are there.

For me the main lesson from this is that the efforts of the mainstream media to try to downplay issues in order not to play into the hands of the far right has misfired spectacularly. Unless we get accurate, unbiased reporting, and an opportunity to have an open and informed debate about it, a vacuum is created which the far right can exploit.

Because Ego, Feminists are only used to complaining about trivial crap like what you mentioned. When a real situation like this occurs they have no idea how to handle it

Speaker

Do you.?

Do one.

The media response, from the German attempted cover-up to the UK attempt to brush it all under the carpet, has been astonishing.

Many of the commenters on the Guardian's pathetic opinion piece are equally disillusioned with the newspaper. Gaby's apologist article has - rightly - been ripped to shreds. Comments were closed after a few hours, needless to say.

Those comments, and threads like this, reveal how out of touch a lot of the media is with actual public opinion.

Yes the BBC reported, but they took a mealy-mouthed approach to this story- they lagged behind the right-wing press, and in their reports relegated it down the bulletin: in the first News at Ten report they failed to mention the ethnicity of the attackers, or that women were raped, and 'assault' was listed after theft. Like the Guardian, the BBC has been forced because of public opinion to take the story more seriously.

A sad week for so-called Western liberal values.

Nope. Too busy reading about this pay gap nonsense, women in STEM, 'safe spaces' etc.

Wait a minute. Yes I got it. Declare everywhere a 'safe space' and you'll be ok

There are different categories of feminists. The Guardian types can be classed as hypocritical - they are insincere and about appearances and image.

I see an upset person.

I see lots of upset women on this thread. Not all of them are making objectionable remarks but some are. An increasing number as the thread progresses. It has stopped being a thread about women being thrown under the bus and started beung a thread about immigration.

And i don't think saying I don't want to be associated with those views is rude. I don't. I am upset by those views.

This started as a thread about women being thrown under the bus for the sake of not policing a difficult situation. It has mutated. Any media outlet coming on here now looking for the zeitgeist is not going to say "women outraged at once again having their rights ignored" it will say "women turn against migrants in wake of NYE attacks" and it will quote whichever quotes best serve that headline.

I was making a valid point. The more this becomes about immigration and not about women the less it will be reported in the mainstream and the more the (former) Guardian reading left will seek to disassociate themselves from it.

All perpetrators of violence and sexual attacks against women must be punished accordingly regardless of where they are from. The terrorist aspect should be viewed as an aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.

Womens rights should be upheld regardless of where they are. (Yy to poster way upthread who said regimes which discriminate agaibst women should be sanctioned in the same way as apartheid regimes).

"Tbh that manipulation of information by authorities and their subsequent efforts (Mayor's arms length advice) and the implications for women in the future, is bigger than the story of a breakdown in law and order in Cologne."

This is my opinion too.

Like I wrote upthread. This is what a REAL patriarchy looks like and it's only the beginning

That was in teply to sonyas post. Soz.