Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve Part II

[Pinkchampchoccies]

Just in case people want to continue discussing this.

I think the easiest place to start is for all of us to demand that the police across uphold the laws on sexual harassment right now. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Tell police officers that every time an issue of cultural difference comes up in relation to a sex crime, they work on the basis of the law without fear of retaliation from those shouting 'racist'. The same is true of the CPS.

We should also be demanding some kind of bill of rights, either in national parliaments or the European ones, which enshrines a woman's right to live, work, love and move around free of sexual harassment in law. Something which will trump any and all other rights.

We need to be honest. These attitudes are alive and well in a number of sections of society. Older generations of white British natives often speak about girls acting like sluts. Second and third generation immigrant families are calling white women 'white meat' and other derogatory terms because we do not conform to their cultural standards. They need to be called out and challenged. No-one should be allowed to get away with sexually harassing a woman any more than they should be allowed to call someone a racist name. We stop it by educating girls and boys that it is wrong and encouraging people to speak up when they hear it. Give them a script they can remember that says "I'm sad to hear you speak like that. It may have been acceptable in the old days but we've moved on and women have equal rights and responsibilities now."

We need a proper education programme on the rights, roles and freedoms of women. Something that can be used in schools, as young as primary age and also be rolled out as part of the citizenship test too so people actually have to read and learn about it.

What we can't do is nothing... if these attacks were coordinated then it's a horrific new level of war tactic and needs to be treated as such. We are going to have to take arms against a sea of troubles ladies....

I hate to say it, but I bet the likes of Nick Griffin are sitting at home shrugging their shoulders saying 'I told you so'.
When he said things like he wanted to protect our way of life, culture, & British Values, he was laughed at for being a trouble making nazi ( by many feminists )
I just wonder who's having the last laugh?

De-lurked to post on this thread.
Does anyone know if it's been mentioned on R4 Woman's Hour, I've looked on their very dull website, no mention. I don't listen much myself, finding it bland and repetitive so don't hold out much hope.
Have tweeted them to ask if they plan to cover it next week.
Is it true also that rapes in Sweden are at an all time high? Particularly in Malmo apparently. Why?
It seems very difficult to get a true or at least truer, picture of what is going on anywhere. The papers etc all having their own particular agendas and inflating or ignoring stories according to their biases.

I'm relieved I'm not being silly, but at the same time angry that we have to feel this way.

If uni consent talks caused a lot of anger from young men saying they are being treat like a potential rapist, from the very few men I've seen speak on this, they seem to blame women for it, would a curfew on single men attending nightclubs etc have the result of some/many of them blaming and directing their anger at women, rather than towards the men who have made curtailments on their movements be a thing?

Been talking loads about this, mostly to dh.

Dh said he thinks women are being curtailed because they are less likely to react violently and cause disruption in reaction. Whereas banning men from things they want to do, then there's a possibility if riots and if the police are not equipped to deal with 1,000 men, could they deal with possibly a lot more angry men? Hope that makes sense.

Dh initially said that he'd fight the men off if he was walking through that train station with myself and dd, that he's surprised nobody was killed because he thinks he'd either kill someone trying to get us to safety, or be killed himself if they rounded up on him fighting back. I said the men travelling with those women will have tried, but they were just as outnumbered as the women, and I think when he's seen the images posted here, he saw how powerless both the women, and the men with them would have been in such a crowd.

He's often shared my worries about street harrasment etc, for dd, but I think he hasn't always understood my fear? I don't know how to word it, like, he's been concerned but hasn't seen it through my eyes, he's a big bloke and can fight people off if they are intent on hurting him, he's never in his life felt scared walking past a group of men shouting sexual comments at him, because it's never happened, and Cologne has made him think of himself in a situation where he can't do anything. That saying "fuck off" doesn't always work, and a man would react differently to me slapping them, than they would him thumping them. He's gotten a small insight into how powerlessness can feel.

Hope I haven't made him sound like a violent thug, he's not, but would use violence and his large build to his advantage in self defence.

Would buying myself some pepper spray be an over reaction? I'm having trouble separating between my (mild) anxiety and common sense.

anonooo it can be argued that it's a form of terror attack. Terror isn't just spread by guns and bombs.
Rape is a weapon of war, designed to demoralise the population. It's not really targeted against the women (because theyre seen as property rather than individual human beings). It's targeted against the men, to say 'fuck you, you're too weak to protect your own women'.
I saw a video (not sure if it's on youtube) where a man of 'north african appearance' punched a german woman because she refused to give him her phone number. He then turned to the camera and said 'we will take your women'. (Disclaimer. I don't speak german, I'm going on the translation).
We already know that Isis and other extremist groups take captive women as sex slaves and ultimately this could be our fate. This was a taster.

I read a report from a man there who explained that the only option was to use his strength to try to remove girlfriend as quickly as possible this would not of happened if he began fighting the attackers it would of left his girlfriend even more vulnerable. The numbers were just too many.

Luna What a diatribe! Evidence of racism can be seen in all ME countries.

How many European families have tried to relocate to an ME or Gulf country? Those that work there have strict codes of conduct imposed on them because that ME country wants it that way. If a foreign co. wants to start up a business, the state (if it allows you, that is) has to be a 50/50 partner. So you are saying that some nations are allowed to exercise choice, but European ones should not because it is ...... wrong. Kuwait will not accept Israeli workers for example, or those they know to be jewish. Isnt that racist too?

ME or Muslim people do have a higher birth rate. Statistics are in the public domain, so where is the untruth in that?
My parents came to this country after the war but as backgrounds were similar they thanked the Lord for sanctuary and assimilated. You must have seen the placards and banners by Muslim protestors throughout England saying Islam Will Dominate the World. Death to the Infidel. Behead British Soldiers. No other ethnic group who has settled in UK conducts themselves in this way however badly they might feel politically. Death threats are made, which is against the law, but police make few arrests because they know that there will be butchery in the streets.

The justification for not allowing Muslim refugees is racist.
Oh, bullshit, with all due respect.
Islam is a RELIGION not a race: if a country is prepared to accept Christian Arab refugees (which I think you, Luna, earlier said CZ or Hungary was prepared to do), but not Muslim Arab refugees, it is not being racist. It's demonstrating religious bias.

Has anyone else got the same banner along the bottom of the page as I have: 'Guest panel: what are your hopes for women in 2016?' Er, being able to go out at night without being groped and raped by an organised mob. That would be good.

And yes, I expect Nick Griffin is smirking into his lunchtime pint even as I type.

yes, but would anyone describe a rampaging mob of hooligans as terrorists?

constance the rate of rapes in Sweden are the second highest in the world, though I think there are different ways of recruiting them. Sweden records every single rape, whereas other countries record every complaint as an incident. It8s still risen astronomically though.

Is it a terror attack? All I know is I would rather visit Paris at the moment than cologne. So even if it wasn't it has had the same effect.

anonooo it depends on what your definition is I suppose. I regard them as terrorists, yes. I think they realise now that they're not going to break the European people through guns and bombs. This is another tactic. I think our security forces have to understand this and get on top of it quickly.

No. I am not saying that at all. I was responding to someone that stated Orban isn't racist. I was making it quite clear that he is racist and highlighting the dangers of the 'keep them all out' strategy. There are a few on this thread that do appear to admire Orban. I wanted to point out that some strong measures to protect from danger which is posed by some immigrants may have sinister repercussions.

Critically examinining causes is important, which means talking about aspects of Islam or extremism itself, rather than a blanket lumping together of Muslims from various countries.

If foreign men attend a NYE celebrations and bring along with them notes of what they want to say to women such as:

"I want to fuck you"
"I want to kill you"
"Big tits"

as per my previous post, it is clear they went with the intention of harass in, intimidating and hurting women. I don't know if this is an ISIS attack, I guess not, but it is a mass hate crime.

constance Yes, it's true. Also an alarming rise in male rape. Didn't malmo recently open a sex crime "hospital" for men?

Ratios, ratios. Look at rural China/India where LOWER ratios exist.

I don't see it as a coordinated terror attack at all - just a clash of cultures.

Of course western men can be sexually aggressive, especially in male company, but in 99/100 cases you can tell them to "piss off baldy" and they'll slope off with their tail between their legs - perhaps with a parting shot of "frigid lesbian" .

On the first thread here a woman reported that it happened to her right here in the UK. She said she was glad it happened to her and not her daughter.

What sort of a fucking state are we in? I sympathise with those who realise their daughters will never have the freedom to travel which we enjoyed.

The BNP are as mysogynistic as Wahabi Islam. Both would like to see women at home, powerless and off the streets. Any objection by the BNP is based on a power struggle. Other men taking 'their' white women. What this thread is about is the mass assault on women and their rights to go about their business, enjoy themselves on a night out without being the victims of sexual assault, and the realisation that we are all as women, white, black, asian, muslim being thrown under the bus on the altar of tolerance to the intolerable belief system of a religion and culture that I do not want to live under.

Also, if you think there is no racism on this thread and it balanced, see Tatiana's post on how she perceives the British nation is being diluted. Rather reminds me of something someone else once said.

noeffingidea I read that statistics from southern Sweden, Malmo in particular, show that 90 percent of rapes/sex assault in the last 12 yrs have been by migrant Muslims from various nations. That specific, because that is the behaviour that binds.

Luna Dog, bone, leave it alone.

Two men arrested in Cologne. Both migrants.

I think there are many complexities which are being conflated.

We want everyone to coexist peacefully and safely. In most of Europe this happens. I'm not into dictating how people order their lives within the law of the land.

I think the authorities face unprecedented challenges with thus and many are inexperienced and unprepared.

It's important women make their voices heard and are listened to. It's not unreasonable to expect greater protection at events and in public areas.

Longer term, there's a huge amount of work to do assimilating people into communities and part of that is enforcing cultural values and the law.

You can't take in large groups of people and just leave them to get on with it.

Pinkchamp, you are on a thread about women's rights and yet you keep trying to shut me up. What is your problem? Contact Mumsnet if you want me silenced.

Tatiana, you didn't answer this bit of my diatribe could you ?

What is 'British' culture Tatiana? Can you describe it? How do you think it has been diluted? You seem to be suggesting some sort of cultural purity that has been lost.

'No cohesion.' There is cohesion.

A nation diluted? Was this nation once purer?

I don't know whether this would stand up to legal scrutiny but terrorism is about intent, right? So a bunch of hooligans smashing up streets because they're pissed is a crime but not terrorism. However if the same group of hooligans went round smashing up streets, telling people "don't come here this is our city" and trying to scare people into changing their behaviour then that is surely a form of terrorism? It is using terror to get a certain set of results.

I would argue that a coordinated attack on women in such large numbers is trying to scare women into changing their behaviour and that the government's response is supporting that. So by that thought process it is a form of terrorism.

Luna said: "if you think there is no racism on this thread and it balanced, see Tatiana's post on how she perceives the British nation is being diluted. Rather reminds me of something someone else once said."

Don't be ridiculous. My parents were foreigners. I am British but not English (a Home Office definition). But I love this country and it gave safety to my parents. You are the one is very good at sounding balanced, but is in fact a denier.