EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

[wiltingfast]

Elected !

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Silting: common misconception - you misunderstand : legislative initiative .

Propose and draft are not same as initiate, which commission has monopoly on and decide if they will initiate. The commission run the show.

Of course president of commission is also involved in Council shaping of the commission initiative.

I've posted on other threads the difference and also posted links.

I did link today Jacques Delors institute EU funded research document today which looked into "have they succeeded in reducing the Commissions monopoly on initiative" Answer is no - because the council has commission president involved in drafting mot to mention the other reasons I have explained in other threads.

So they themselves openly admit they haven't moved very far from the commission monopoly. The council do get more opportunities because most Virgin initiatives have been enacted. See mess in Europe. The five presidents report tells you commission initiatives to take place this year and over next ten years. Council will get to shape at next stage on these further integrations - but with commission president involved - but not voting.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Now most Virgin initiatives exist and cannot be overturned as ECJ are there to enforce them. Mostly it is lobbyists keeping things ticking along with laws that generally suit big businesses. It is a wasteful nightmare.

The commission will be busier than they have been for a while -as they are to speed up economic policies due to the huge financial mess coming re Italy etc

[wiltingfast]

Yes but it's all run by the elected politicians. Who send over their chosen commissioner. And it doesn't have the power to pass them. Suggest away but if council and parliament don't agree it goes nowhere.

Govt & big business not unknown in uk, prob worse. Witness murdochs comments on uk govt do what I say, Brussels ignore me. Not to mention your powerful food business sector. And finance sector. Plenty of lobbying done in London. Smaller govt more likely to listen imo. In fact, I had the distinct impression one of the reasons for leaving is to get rid of some of those pesky regulations "burdening" big business.

So. Not sure what I'm misunderstanding tbh.

It's one of those cliches that's not really true. But everyone loves to hate the bureaucrats.

[SnowBells]

Do people actually realize that leaving the EU will not actually grant the UK 'independence'?

Unless you think the UK can be self-sufficient, i.e. no trading with other countries in the EU, you will still be held down by EU laws (just like you must abide by US laws when selling to the US).

Then, you will be forced to abide by those EU rules without having any say in the matter because you're not part of the EU.

People say, "they need us more than we need them", because we're a net importer of EU products. They need our business.

Apparently.

Is it really them who need our business though rather than us needing their products?!? What will happen when the products we have become accustomed to are no longer available for the price we're used to?

Just think about that for a minute.